mic'ng an acoustic in an auditorium

[EVT]

Hello everyont,
Today I used a sennheiser e835s mic to mic my acoustic guitar in an elementary school auditorium. I use this mic for practicing into my soundcraft mixer and it's fine but It didn't really do to well in the school. It wasn't picking up the guitar sound to well, and when some students used it to speak they had to go right up to it to be heard. The volume was as high as it could go without feedback, and there was another radioshack mic plugged in which sounded much better.

We have a mackie mixer and there are tracks 1, 2, and 3 are routed to the front of the wooden stage where there are xlr inputs for these channels.

The school was built in 1914... old, everything was there way before I got there. I don't know if phantom powered mics can be used the way things are hooked up. The mixer is "in" a closet in the wall with no access to other connections.

OK...
Here's the question... besides a radioshack mic, or mics that require phantom power what are some relatively inexdpensive mics you would recommend for me to use to mic my acoustic guitar when I do shows with the kids?

thanks...
evt

[scrubs]

If it's a steel string, get a soundhole pickup. It's much easier than miking for live use (allows you to move around and gives a consistent tone). You can get a Dean Markley pickup for less than $50. They also make a stick-on pickup (DM Artist) that works for nylon strings or irregular soundholes.

If you must use a mic, get a clip on (lapel type) mic that you can attach to the soundhole.

As for the kids, you really need a PA system with a powered amp for a larger venue. A small mixer just isn't enough juice. I don't know what built-in system they had in the gym, but it obviously wasn't enough.

[Dot]

I agree with scrubs and would use a pick-up over a mic in that situation.

I use mics live, but I also use a Dean Markley ProMag Plus. It's going for around $44.00. You don't need to do any modifications or drilling on your guitar. It slips easily into place on the soundhole. Removing it takes 2 seconds.

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Pickups/ProMag.shtml

[EVT]

The problem is that I only have access to xlr inputs at the front of the stage. There is no way to get to the 1/4" inputs. They are sealed away in a wall. It's like a permanent... permanent setup, and I heavily doubt they are going to let me dimantle it... although I would like too.
evt

[XLR]

I did a lot of school music assemblies in the past. Using an auditorium or gym PA could never get me enough volume or clarity for the gtr or vocals. Pushing it at all would only get mush and feedback. I used my own small PA on stage and SM57 mic's. For gtr either a magnetic soundhole pickup (easiest) or a transducer and buffer. I used a Dean Markley Artist transducer that stuck on the foot of the bridge and used a cheap pedal EQ as a buffer. If kids are using mic's on stage, the only practical way I think is to have 2 or 3 mic's and group a few kids close up at each (the one directly in front of each mic will come through the most so put your best singers there). Distant mic'ing is fine for recording, but live sound in this type of situation really needs close mic'ing of vocals. We'd generally take 30 min's to set up each time, and it was worth it to be able to really control the sound. Gotta say too that a compressor/limiter set with a high threshold and high ratio is a lifesaver when kids scream into or tap on a mic, also can be used to make everything even fuller without feedback.

Tim

[rpe]

Is using a 1/4" to xlr conversion jack out of the question?

rpe

[XLR]

Is using a 1/4" to xlr conversion jack out of the question?

A transformer to balanced signal could get your guitar into the house mixer but you've still got the speaker/room/monitoring problem. If you go direct in with the guitar and it sounds clear and rich in the room, you might be able to get away with that if it's just you and on-stage mic'd singers. But an on-stage small PA gives you tremendous control that you'll need to balance everything, and just as importantly you can set up the speakers so you can hear your own vox and gtr even if you've got the whole roomfull of kids singing.

Tim

[EVT]

Thanks for all the input.

I just thought of using my radial jdi to run a pickup with 1/4" into... then out of the jdi xlr into the xlr input in the front of the stage. I'm actually going to take some photos to show what I mean. It's an old school built in 1914 in Jamaica, Queens NY. I mostly work with the little kids K-2 grade. And it's always an experience to see what they are going to do on stage. It is hard to get a good sound, and there is no way I would have 30 minutes to setup, the administration would have me killed... I'm lucky if I could have 3 minutes! Everything is always so rushed, it's pretty crazy. We have k-5th grade and in each grade there are 11 or 12 classes.... very overcrowded. And it's insane they have 2 wireless mics that you need to bring 9v batteries if you want to use them, and they have one regular radioshack mic, which is used in the autitorium and then one of the secretaries had to run in the autitorium to ask for it so that she could plug it in the main office for the principal to make morning announcements... Honestly God is on my side to keep me sane with this madness. I had to bring my own mics in and xlr cables!!! They had one which just broke, so I need to bring my own... and I tell them and they say ok we'll take care of it, but by the time that happens I'll be 99 years old...

OK... sorry... I had to vent
evt

[XLR]

Hey EVT, just looked at your site. From your question here I had thought that you were a newbie but not so. Sounds like you've got everything you'd need to do this right, but you're just being put in an impossible situation being expected to use SR without any setup or control.

Who are the K-2nd graders performing for? Do you really have to mic the kid singers? Maybe you could just get by with a small 2 channel amp, and just reinforce the gtr and your vocal for leading the singing.

Tim

[AGCurry]

Guitar pickup -> DI box -> house XLR input.

As far as a mic for speaking/singing, most mics made for loud rock/pop vocals are designed to minimize feedback, therefore you have to indeed get right up on them. An SM57 or Sennheiser 421 would do better.

[EVT]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

Hey EVT, just looked at your site. From your question here I had thought that you were a newbie but not so. Sounds like you've got everything you'd need to do this right, but you're just being put in an impossible situation being expected to use SR without any setup or control.

Who are the K-2nd graders performing for? Do you really have to mic the kid singers? Maybe you could just get by with a small 2 channel amp, and just reinforce the gtr and your vocal for leading the singing.

Tim

What I do with my own music is in my home studio (Corrientes- like you saw in the website), but the school needs to get their own mics/cables etc. I don't want to use my own personal equipment at the school.

The kids are performing in a daytime show for and their parents and other students in the school. I like to choose 1 or 2 students to be llead singers so that their voices are heard louder and the children will follow them. I choose kids that sing well and can remember the words... and aren't shy. I find that it pumps the other kids up to sing with more enthusiasm when a fellow student is at the mic. I don't want to only here me and the guitar. I actually don't even use a mic for my singing, only for my guitar. And I sit in front of the stage facing them on the stage.

I actually teach language arts (through music). I go to different classes throughout the day with my acoustic guitar and sing all kinds of songs with the children to help develop their reading skills (rhyming words, letter sounds etc.) Individual classes are asked to perform a play or songs during assemblies and the classroom teachers usually ask me to help them for these shows. There is also a chorus teacher who plays a Roland VA-76 arranger keyboard. He works more with the older students and has his own classroom that the classes go to for music.
evt

[XLR]

Well, best of luck and maybe the DI to the house system will do just what you need without having to lug a guitar amp around. Believe me, I've been there and sympathize with the situation. Some of what I did was coaching and rehearsing vocal groups in elementary and middle school, then directing the performances and accompanying on gtr. Mostly though, it was singing in the classroom. If you're interested, this was 60 of my 1st and 2nd graders crammed into one classroom for a singalong.

Tim

[EVT]

Thanks for the help Tim
evt

[TravisK]

like they said, for the vocals, an sm57 or two would be ideal. They are much better for presence amongst most passive, small diaphragm mics.

pickup in the acoustic-->direct in-->PA is ideal, but an sm57 on the mic wouldn't be bad if you don't want a pickup either.

it's the workhorse of pro audio for a reason

[EVT]

ok, here's the latest...
I was asked to figure out which mics the school is going to buy. They are giving me a 2000 dollar budget and want:

6 mics with cables

2 wireless mics

3 mic stands

I was thinking for the 6 mics to get:
a shure package deal with 4 sm58's and 2 sm57's
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/270151/

I'm not too familiar with wireless mics though. I would need something that the kids wouldn't have to where anything on their waist... I see that they have a little plastic beeper sort of clip on thing for these mics...
What would you recommend?

And finally, the stands... not sure what, but something easy to adjust for the kids to be able to adjust the height if necessary.

I am going to put together a list and print it out for them. We need it soon... the show we are doing is on the 16th! I tell you they are pretty crazy here!

thanks...
evt

[XLR]

I think the SM58/57 set is a good idea. Reliability, rugged, good sound, and kids love singing into the same mic's they see on TV. That sounds corny but everything that helps motivate elementary kids is a plus.

Don't know about the wireless mic's, except that with primary grade kids I'd be nervous about them using handheld mic's in general. Good to have I guess for adult use. A wireless lav would be OK for anybody but you've got the belt clip unit there.

STANDS: I'd get very heavy base atlas type stands and avoid the folding tripod type. When kids get close to the mic they'll get their feet tangled up with the feet of the tripods.

It's great the school's investing in you. They must value what you're doing.

Tim

[wells]

The 57/58's are great... durable and will sound good. We've got 3 of these at our school: ATM31a I'm soon helping out with a 'talent show' type thing and using 2 of these. About half of the acts are singing and/or guitar. These pick up both absolutely terrificly. Unfortunately, they pick almost too well... drums are getting mixed in and it's a nightmare because the drummer is singing. Of course, there are no boom stands there (??) so straight stand about 1 foot away from the drummer has to be used which leads me to my next point... your school wants 3 mic stands. Possibly you could get 2 straight, 1 boom? Or with any left over cash get 1 boom...? Good luck with your gear hunt and have fun.

[EVT]

Thanks again for all of your ideas and suggestions.
I actually went on musician't friend online and added what I wanted to the cart to get a total amount. I was able to get the pricipal to write out a school check for $1,567.85 and I went to guitar center which matched the musician's friend price. It was very cool because even though they didn't have that shure mic package, they matched it and I got everything separate and with some nicer xlr cables.

This is what I got and it was matched up exactly to $1,567.85. It was tax exempt since it was for a school. So tomorrow I'm going to show up at the school like a microphone Santa Claus!
skb case for mics
4 shure sm58's
2 shure sm57's
2 shure pgx24/sm58 h-6 wireless mics
6 20' monster xlr cables
1 15' monster xlr cable
1 25' planet waves xlr cable
3 proline round base stands
1 proline tripod boom stand
2 5 packs of windscreens

evt