compressing overall mix

[johnny j]

i dont know if im in the right section for this advice i need but no doubt you'll let me know

i have a yamaha MD8 and were ready to transfer some songs onto a regular MD player, from this i'll put it onto a CD. there are inserts for tracks 1 and 2 which are hooked up to a compressor. we generally put vocals on track 1 and any toher tracks that are a bit weak we move to track 2 and use the compressor to boost the volume a bit

i have a second compressor lying idle so what i thought id do is to put a compressor in line between the MD8 and the MD recorder. however ive been reading a book on recording techniques and it seems to say that this method isnt a good idea. it did say if possible to "compress through the stereo bus" (i think that was the wording) but i dont know how to do this. at the rear of the unit theres a stereo out and a monitor out so i cant see how to compress the whole thing

can anyone advise on how to compress the overall sound, is it necessary even? any thoughts gratefully received to a newcomer

[ecktronic]

I used to think that compressing the whole mix was a must to get that gelled "as one" sound, but i have realised that it is the mixing that acheives this gelled sound. So i dont bother compressing my mix. I cant really hear a difference in the uncompressed to compressed anyway!!

[RhythmRmixd]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I cant really hear a difference in the uncompressed to compressed anyway!!

That's the idea, at least if you're compressing it correctly. Of course, if you don't trust your ears to understand the difference then that's a different story all together....

[ssscientist]

Originally Posted by RhythmRmixd

Of course, if you don't trust your ears to understand the difference then that's a different story all together....

Ooooh! Ow! And I'm not even a Scotsman!

[RhythmRmixd]

Originally Posted by ssscientist

Ooooh! Ow! And I'm not even a Scotsman!

Now, now. I wasn't trying to be critical. Don't start stirring the kool-aid.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by RhythmRmixd

That's the idea, at least if you're compressing it correctly. Of course, if you don't trust your ears to understand the difference then that's a different story all together....

So your saying the point is not to be able to hear a difference. So why do it then!!!!!!!!!

[RhythmRmixd]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

So your saying the point is not to be able to hear a difference. So why do it then!!!!!!!!!

Well, yes and no. To somebody who understands (and I'm not saying I'm an expert on this in any way) how compression works, how the attack, release, ratio, etc. control the punchiness and pumping type effects, then they will know if what they're doing is helping or hurting the original signal. When I said you shouldn't be able to hear the difference, I meant you shouldn't actually be hearing the compressor itself working as the material is playing. The difference should be subtle enough so the compression improves the sound, but not so it's noticeable. And any Joe Schmoe (someone who doesn't mix music) listening to the mix in their car stereo wouldn't notice anyway, cause they wouldn't know what compression sounds like in the first place!

A good experiment would be to overcompress something you've mixed, and listen to whats going on. Then bring the overall compression level down, and listen to how it changes the sound.

[ecktronic]

RhythmRmixd, do you think that a plug-in like Waves R-comp could actually produce an effect of more punchiness on a mix? ( to a decent degree)
I understand what a compressor does and how it works with the attack and release times.

[Inspired]

So how do you put compression on an entire mix? Specifically using Cakewalk's Sonar 2.0XL...

[RhythmRmixd]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

RhythmRmixd, do you think that a plug-in like Waves R-comp could actually produce an effect of more punchiness on a mix? ( to a decent degree)

I don't have experience with the Waves Renissance stuff, but I imagine any compressor, used properly, could add a bit of punch on an overall mix. And, of course, different compressors alter the sound in different ways. I used a software multiband compressor on a mix the other night to one of my rap/hip hop instrumentals, and was doing an A/B comparison with it on/off while the mix was playing back. It was noticeably better with it on (I think I'm finally getting the hang of this!), but not TOO noticeable. It cleaned up my mids and highs and seemed to give that area a little more clarity, which is something in the past I didn't think a compressor was used for. I guess the point is, don't over-do it, because no compression is better than too much compression any day of the week, IMOO.

[Chibi Nappa]

Originally Posted by johnny j

i dont know if im in the right section for this advice i need but no doubt you'll let me know

i have a yamaha MD8 and were ready to transfer some songs onto a regular MD player, from this i'll put it onto a CD.

Let's back up to this for a second... Why are you sticking an MD player in there? You know MD players use lossy data compression, right? You're hurting your sound.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Inspired

So how do you put compression on an entire mix? Specifically using Cakewalk's Sonar 2.0XL...

Ive never used Sonar, but im guessing that you would import your stereo mix to a stereo track and any plugins that you add on that chanel will effect it.

[grn]

have you asked yourself... what is the purpose of this? if it already sounds good, don't try to fix it. why are you compressing it? do you want it louder? you should use compression as an effect to make an instrument sound better and more even, but not to make anything louder/gel together.

[ecktronic]

Cheers RhythmRmixd, i put up two samples for folk to try and work out which one is compressed and which one is not compressed. Should be a bit of fun. I made sure the volumes were pretty much the same so that nothing apart from the compression effect could affect folks judgement. My ears arent trained enough yet but im sure i can hear a difference in the mix with compression. The thread is in the MP3 section. You can also just click on my link at the bottom.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by johnny j

it did say if possible to "compress through the stereo bus" (i think that was the wording) but i dont know how to do this. at the rear of the unit theres a stereo out and a monitor out so i cant see how to compress the whole thing
can anyone advise on how to compress the overall sound, is it necessary even? any thoughts gratefully received to a newcomer

1. putting it in the chain the way you intended will work, and be the same as "compress through the stereo bus". same thing.

2. 2:1, quick attack, quick-to-medium release, 3 db of gain reduction = ballpark

3. no it is not necessary. it is an effect like eq.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

1. putting it in the chain the way you intended will work, and be the same as "compress through the stereo bus". same thing.

2. 2:1, quick attack, quick-to-medium release, 3 db of gain reduction = ballpark

3. no it is not necessary. it is an effect like eq.

That is practically the settings i used for my samples at the link at the bottom excpet for 3dB gain reduction. Why reduce when you obviously want to make up the gain lost from compressing?
2=ballpark??!!??!! no comprende.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

That is practically the settings i used for my samples at the link at the bottom excpet for 3dB gain reduction. Why reduce when you obviously want to make up the gain lost from compressing?
2=ballpark??!!??!! no comprende.

= ballpark means these settings should put you in the ballpark. if you do not reduce than you are not compressing anything!! so you put 3 db of gain reduction, and 3 db of makeup. comprende?

[ecktronic]

Ah so you mean those settings will give 3dB of gain reduction, so you have to add 3dB of gain so as not to get any sound degredation. What about the threshold, surely it has alot to do with how much the gain is reduced?

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Ah so you mean those settings will give 3dB of gain reduction, so you have to add 3dB of gain so as not to get any sound degredation. What about the threshold, surely it has alot to do with how much the gain is reduced?

exactly. start with those settings and adjust the threshold until you have 3 db of gain reduction. my bad. should have said that.

if your'e trying to sound like green day or something really in your face, set it for 12 db of gain reduction and play with the release. heh, heh.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

2. 2:1, quick attack..

Caution flag (for newbies )
'Quick attack? (Ask how quick.) To quick = no transients. = Playing in a soggy ballpark.

Wayne

[FALKEN]

different settings for different sounds right? too slow will actually make the music MORE dynamic... whatever sounds cool man.

[ryanlikestorock]

I'm always confused when people reach for a compressor to get "more punch". By definition, the effect of compression is "less punch"... to limit the difference between peak and average level. Mix bus compression more than 1db is going to just kill the mix and less than 1db is used mostly just for colour anyway. If you have a nice colourful compressor, just set it to compress .5db for colour... otherwise you're probably just making things sound worse.

Use a compressor if you hear a problem in the mix because of too much dynamic range. Otherwise, leave it be.

[ecktronic]

Some good words ryan. I could never really see the point in compressing the whole mix, but i heard it was done quite alot, so i tried and didnt get the results i was expecting. It did pickle my head for a bit trying to work out how a compresor could possibly give more punch to anything.

[northsiderap]

I figure if you set the attack long enough you should get a BIGGER dynamic range because of the increased audible ratio between the start of the note and where the compressor kicks in and squashes.

I also compress the final mix if I am looking for a ducking-like effect, where either the vocals or bass drum squash the rest of the mix. It's kinda nice to bus out a track, EQ it, and run it back into the sidechain so the compressor is working on only certain frequencies. It's fun to play with... Listening to each kick drum, vocal, or cymbal splash eat up the whole mix.

Sometimes its necessary to compress when there are passages where one or all of the instrumentalists freaks out and increases the dynamic range beyond the point of reasonable listening. Have you ever listened to a classical station, only to find yourself turning it up... and up... and up.... and then BAM quick, turn it down!

The noise floor makes it unreasonable to let the dynamic range sit at such a high level. Perhaps some classical stations assume that the listeners want the music untouched, or that they are sitting in a perfectly quiet room with their $1,000,000 stereo system.

[RhythmRmixd]

I think this is entirely dependant on what you are trying to do with the mix. A lot of people today argue that commercial music is over-compressed, over-limited, whatever, especially with pop, rap, etc. A bit of overall compression, especially on hip-hop beat, can really help push the song along and add feel to it (but definitely not to be over-done). Just because a compressor isn't used in traditional ways or by definition doesn't mean the sound created by it is always undesirable.