how do you pan your guitars?

[earworm]

i wonder,
when u record distortion guitars for a metal song,
and both guitarist kinda play the same thing,

how do you pan them,

not just hardpan left-right?

right now i got them on 46L 46R and seems like i shouldn't go further or it sounds "too open",
are there general rules about this, or how do you mostly handle this kinda stuff,

and for some takes i got an ambient mike too,
where would you throw that one in... maybe in the center,
or is it best to put no guitars in the center of a mix

cheers,
earworm

[IronFlippy]

I usually do what you do, pan L/R, but not all the way. A thought came to me just now though. Maybe dub both guitars and pan one of each all the way and then the second of each closer together, like maybe 25? Just an idea.

[Rokket]

When I record harder sounding guitars, I usually do something like IronFlippy says. I record 4 tracks, two per side. I pan the main rhythm guitars hard R/L, and the other ones between 25% to 50%, depending on the song.

One other note: I play the second guitar parts with different chord voicings to avoid them being lost in the mix or phasing issues. I also try to mix up the guitar sounds with different pickups or different amps. Since I only have the one guitar to record with right now, I have to do a lot of experimentation. I recommend you do that to: see what you can come up with. If you don't like it, you can always change it.

[distortedrumble]

i've done that..it can get a little muddy....instead. i have 1 of the two guitarist play twice and pan his guitar hard left and right....then i have the other guitar (the one playing something a little different) play and put his more towards the middle...maybe record him twice and pan him out between 25 and 50 LandR. also be aware of backing vocals...you dont want to have too many things sitting on top of each other and backing vocals in the middle of the stereo field gives it a demo type quality

[distortedrumble]

another variation is if the guitars are thin or beefy...

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by distortedrumble

i've done that..it can get a little muddy....instead. i have 1 of the two guitarist play twice and pan his guitar hard left and right....then i have the other guitar (the one playing something a little different) play and put his more towards the middle...maybe record him twice and pan him out between 25 and 50 LandR. also be aware of backing vocals...you dont want to have too many things sitting on top of each other and backing vocals in the middle of the stereo field gives it a demo type quality

That's why I recommended using different chord voicings and different pickup settings on the guitar. It can get muddy.

Even changing the melody a little, like you said, can help out a lot...

[earworm]

cool,
gonna try these things
, i think we can use some more "fullness", doubling guitars might work,

but both guitarist wanted to sound kinda the same, so thats what i gave them...

now i can hardpan one guitarist left and right,
give the second guitarist a tweak on EQs, make him lighter, double him, left, right, and pan him a bit more to the centre

will see what it does, real curious about the result

..first thing in the morning, promise,

need sleep now..

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by earworm

cool,
gonna try these things
, i think we can use some more "fullness", doubling guitars might work,

but both guitarist wanted to sound kinda the same, so thats what i gave them...

now i can hardpan one guitarist left and right,
give the second guitarist a tweak on EQs, make him lighter, double him, left, right, and pan him a bit more to the centre

will see what it does, real curious about the result

..first thing in the morning, promise,

need sleep now..

Let us know how it turned out! Post it if they will let you...

[bigwillz24]

You can try this....

Hard pan one guitar left....

Run that track through a delay unit panned hard right... play with the delay till it sounds right to you depending on the tempo somewhere between 60ms - 120ms.

Sounds awesome give it a try...

[Adam P]

If you're using identical tracks (IE copying and pasting a track) with delay on one of them, watch out for ugly sounds when you sum in mono. I've messed around with it some lately and it sounds pretty good in stereo but sounds like shit when you sum to mono. Just something to keep in mind.

[Cyrokk]

I prefer to record all my guitar tracks separately using different amp and distortion settings as opposed to copying single guitar tracks and adding delay. If I'm recording fast, palm muted riffing, I'll turn the gain significantly down to keep the guitars sounding clean. The palm muting will add back the lost gain.

I use a Digi RP-100 amp modeler tapped into the line-in of a tube amp, miked with an sm-57. I always use my Epiphone for metal guitars as a Les Paul sound goes better with heavier styles than a Strat sound.

For me, hard panning never works as it buries the guitars and doesn't allow frequencies to interact across the listening spectrum. 3 and 9 0'clock work the best and produce a thick Sabbath sound.

[treymonfauntre]

i play in a one guitar posthardcore group, i recorded 2 takes, put one 75L and one 75R. i think another option might be hardpanning l/r and then making a track that is 100% wet with reverb and panning that one halfway the opposite direction and turning down the level. could be interesting..

[Wireneck]

I have gone back and forth between hardpanned and the 3/9 settings. I think if its more involved than just 2 guys doing identical rhythm tracks, the hard pan can open really open up the middle for whatever else you have going on. My tracks normally have alot of guitars playing though (instrumental stuff).
Also if you hard pan, i believe the volume drops by 3db (as opposed to center volume) could be wrong but im pretty sure ive read that. So don't let the drop in volume throw you off if your A/B ing between the 2 pan settings. In other words you will have to turn the guitars up some when you do the wide pan to have them sound right.

[jonrusso99]

It sounds to me that professional CDs are usually panned hard left/right. Listen to Metallica albums (or others, aerosmith, avenged 7x) for example. When they do there usual, have one guitar start the riff then the other jump in, you can hear that it is pretty much always panned hard. correct me if im wrong.
If the guitar parts are doubled well they should sound good and thick together. Panning towards the center is going to hurt your stereo image and muddy things up especially if you tune low. Sometimes clarity is a good compromise for extra thickness.
Try also using 2 mics for each guitar part, preferably different cabs or amps, or if you only have one, try one on and off axis (always careful with phase issues). This will give you flexibility with panning without the muddyness of multiple parts.
And like Rokket said, different voicings can be a big help and can also add to the feel of the song when players switch between different and the same voicings.

[earworm]

very interesting,

question about the delay, i don't know that i got a delay unit,
so all i can do right now is moving the right channel (or left, whatever) a little bit ..."to the right", i mean, so it starts a few milliseconds later,
but i don't know how many milliseconds it will be,
i'll hear and see...

ok, so hardpanning can be dangerous if u want a good mono compability,
what about putting a little bit of guitar in the center, but not loud?

i prefer to keep guitars away from the center, really want that for kick and snare, and bas and vox

i'm gonna go trough all your suggestions now, see what it sounds like,
and i'll upload an mp3 so people can hear what i'm doing...

thanks for the advice already !

[earworm]

uploaded a little mp3....
quality is rotten, 128 kps, but thats in purpose,
this is "the first mixdown", didn't do anything to it, thats how i recorded it,

only to give you an idea, not for commercial purposes

http://belgianunderground.com/downlo...wn15052005.mp3

here you got one guitar 46-Right and the other 46-Left

you're not supposed to hear any "clicking of the drumsticks" and other "mis-takes )

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by earworm

uploaded a little mp3....
quality is rotten, 128 kps, but thats in purpose,
this is "the first mixdown", didn't do anything to it, thats how i recorded it,

only to give you an idea, not for commercial purposes

http://belgianunderground.com/downlo...wn15052005.mp3

here you got one guitar 46-Right and the other 46-Left

you're not supposed to hear any "clicking of the drumsticks" and other "mis-takes )

earworm, the link doesn't work for me.
Ed

[earworm]

i know, i got problems with my server,
i'm gonna make a small htm file, so u gotto RIGHT CLICK and 'save as',
otherwise it wont work,

voila, here it is:

http://belgianunderground.com/surtur.htm

[David Katauskas]

earworm,
I really like the sound of the guitars...can you describe your equip (amp, pickup, mic) and amp settings?
Thanks in advance.
Dave

[olfunk]

if you listen to almost all the songs on appetite for destruction (guns n roses) they generally have slash and izzys rhythm playing panned hard right and left, then when theres a solo have that in the middle.

[earworm]

the guitar is an ESP, nice looking guitar, totally black, don't know the model or so..

check this out:

http://belgianunderground.com/downlo...guitar_amp.jpg
http://belgianunderground.com/downlo...r/tim_guts.jpg

had a sennheiser md421 aimed straight at one of the speakers,
not exactly in the middle of it, and not on the edge, "in between",
built a little "cage" around it cause i didn't wanna pick up the dirty reverb of the long hall where the amp was standing in,

this mic ran trough a symetrix 528 preamp, hardly used any compression,
gave a lill boost at 6khz, and a little cut at maybe 1khz, little boost at around 200 hz, check this picture, this are the guitar settings:

http://belgianunderground.com/downlo...ttings_528.jpg

i also put an AKG c414 above the amp to act as a roommic but didn't use that signal, it ran trough a joemeek vc8, but didn't like the result,
might mess with it during the mix but think i'll just use the signal i got now

i'm gonna change a little bit on the guitar sound..its not really what i want, its close, it sounds pretty close to how the amp sounded in real life, so its allmost cool. the guitars u hear are totally untreated, didn't do any software thingies with it yet,

and i think my stereo image of the guitars isn't super stable,
since i got different guitar players on Left and Right you can hear..well... "unstability" ...hard to describe

gonna try to double guitar one L+R
and double guitar2 L+F too and pan this one more to the centre,

will see

thanks for the comments

(ps, about amp settings, can't remember, boosted the presence to '7' or '8' i think, gave a little boost on the highs, but not too much,
cut some of the bass, but couldn't edit the mids cause that button broke off, too bad)
both guitarist played trough exactly the same settings, thats what they wanted

[northsiderap]

Like this:

<img src="http://northsiderap.com/ButterGTR.jpg">

[7string]

Originally Posted by northsiderap

Like this:

<img src="http://northsiderap.com/ButterGTR.jpg">

hahahahaahaha I hear that more and more guitarists are doing this as it makes the wood fresh again... like boiling strings... hahahahaha

[Cyrokk]

Originally Posted by jonrusso99

Listen to Metallica albums (or others, aerosmith, avenged 7x) for example. When they do there usual, have one guitar start the riff then the other jump in, you can hear that it is pretty much always panned hard. correct me if im wrong.

Actually, Hetfield recorded three rhythm guitars. Two panned hard left and right, and one straight down the middle.

[earworm]

hehehe, yes, i bet adding butter to the mix will make the guitars sound more FAT indeed