how would you mike this HUGE drumkit? 6 toms 10 cymbals

[earworm]

ok,
on sunday i'm recording a demo song for a deathmetal band,
we're gonna do our utter best to make it sound "as good as we can"...
its gotto be a demo to be proud of...thats what it means,

the drumkit takes up like 50% of my bedroom,

its a Tama, don't know which type,
one kickdrum, with a rack around it with 6 toms on it,
10 sabian AA cymbals surround the kit

i might just have enough mics to mike up every tom,
but i think it might be a better idea to put an extra mic on
the Kick (batterhead) and Snare (strings)....

here's my arsenal of mics:

sennheiser e602 (kick)
beyer m201 (snare)
shure sm57 (3 of them)
sennheiser md421 (2 of them)
oktava mk012 (matched stereo pair, guess for what)
akg c414 (roommic)


now, i can't put the akgc414 above the kit, might be cool to put 3 overhead condensers on this kit...if i do an effort i might get it above the kit, but then i loose the Boom of one of my micstands...that means i loose one tommic..

i can put a sennheiser 421 on the batterhead of the kick,
and then i loose another tommic

i can put a shuresm57 on the strings of the snare and i loose another tom mic

so the general question is: can i get enough power in the toms only from my overhead mics? i will definately hear them...but i'm affraid they'll sound thin... (gonna do a mic check tomorrow, now its midnight and parents are sleeping)

the drummer claims that he will use all the toms, he even left a few at home...OK, thats bad news for me...

check out these pictures...

http://belgianunderground.com/pictures/big_yamaha01.jpg

http://belgianunderground.com/pictur...yamaha_top.jpg

maybe i can just put a sennheiser above the two floortoms, aiming just between the two toms, hoping that it'll pick up enough volume from both floors...

same thing for the 3 toms above the kick... a shure sm57 high enough so it can pick up sound from two toms next to each other...
but then i'll have so much cymbal bleed, the cymbals are totally EVERYWHERE

on the previous demo of this band the "engineer" used only 2 overheads and a kickmic...the sound was incredible BAD, there was NOTHING good about it,
i know i got some decent equipment and my previous drumsounds were just OK...

i guess that ANY suggestions are welcome! !

how would you handle in this situation? (besides stealing all the gear and move to another country...)

thanks in advance....

earworm

[Zaphod B]

The way I see it, you're about 8 mikes short!

[earworm]

hehehe, thats what my nightmares were about ALL WEEK LONG !!!

now its time to improvise

[Zaphod B]

OK, here's how I'd approach it.

You need a dedicated mike for the kick, and the snare and highhat can share one if they're close enough together.

You can share 1 mike for a pair of toms, miking from below.

That's 7 mikes so far.

Spread the remaining three among the cymbals and hope for the best!

[Zaphod B]

Oops, I shouldn't have said to mike the toms from below, but between them, close in from above.

[earworm]

ah, ok, was thinking...from the bottom?

so you mean, let the mic look down between the gap between two toms?

i gues that if i put it high enough it will pick up enough from both..
but i'm affraid that when he hits the little splash cymbals it will sound real loud....mhhh...maybe it'll be OK, just a dynamic mic won't peak on a little splash cymbal..


about my Akg414 ... would you do efforts to try to put it ABOVE the kit?
or can u get nice results with putting it just in front of it//
at hight of the toms

[Zaphod B]

Yes, let the mike look down at the gap between the toms. It can be fairly close - 6 to 12 inches - and will still pick them both up.

I don't have any direct experience with the AGK 414, but usually one or two mikes can pick up a lot more cymbal than you might think. Maybe just stick that one above and slightly in front of the kit, and a couple of others above off to the sides.

[gtrman_66]

Don't be in a big hurry to use up all the mics and don't get stuck on any one idea too quick. I'd start out with 3 or 4 mics, Kick, a pair of overheads and maybe a snare mic and see what that sounds like. Move 'em around a bit until you have that setup sounding as sweet as you can get it,than see what is lacking and add mics from there if needed.

We started out with 3 mics on the last album I recorded, decided we needed a snare mike, recorded a little, took a listen and left it a 4 mics for the whole kit because we liked the sound we were getting.

Good luck!

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by gtrman_66

Don't be in a big hurry to use up all the mics and don't get stuck on any one idea too quick.

Good advice, there.

[earworm]

real good advice,
thats what i'm gonna do first thing in the morning,

kick, snare, overheads

gonna move them around and tweak untill i got a decent sound,

then i'll see what i can do with the extra toms...

i'll have an ocean of spill and bleed everywhere
what a temptation

..my drumkit is 3 times smaller

[gtrman_66]

Also, you might have a conversation with the drummer and ask him if he thinks he will need the whole kit for recording. I have had drummers that have huge kits for live performances that don't mind at all recording with a much smaller kit. Then again, some of them want all their drums, cymbals and yada yada in the studio with them or they aren't comfortable playing. It just depends on the individual I guess.

[xstatic]

I certainly agree with not NEEDING all the drums mic'ed. But you did say this was metal music. Especially since you are in a bedroom you really probably will need as many mics on the kit as you can. You will most likely get plenty of cymbals if you get 6 tom mics out there. I would bag the 414 as a room mic and put it underneath the snare. A lot of faster drummers tend to not hit their snare as hard as they should when they get moving. Then when you try and turn it up, you end up just getting more hat. By using a bottom snare and a top, you can get a louder snare sound withou as much hi hat bleed.

[mattamatta]

Hard limited room mics in a 100X100X20' space, all wood floors, with a mic in the kick. No close mics.

Yeah, that's the stuff.

That's what I dream of at night.
Actually once I did have a dream in which I saw this house with a huge like 100X75' room, wood floored, with nothing but one pillar about 2/3 of the way across the long end, and I thought to myself, in the dream, that would sound sweet for recording drums.

[earworm]

thanks for the advice,
now i'm not happy with the snare sound, it the strings rattle way too much,
when i hit the smallest tom i don't hear the tom but rattling from the snare instead, i played with the tension of the strings and helped a bit, but not much, gonna put my 414 under it, but i hope it won't just give annoying noise instead of a "string snare" ..

gonna take my snaredrum out of the gardenhouse where i stock my drums now, i think mine sounds better, ..it all starts with good instruments, once they do a good job the mics can start working...

my overhead sound isn't bad right now, but now i'm gonna try some trics to really make the XY pair "stable"..so i get a decent stereo image,
there's not much happening on the 'left side' (hihat side) of the drums,
there's just the snare, hihat and a china,
all the other toms and cymbals go from the middle to the extreme right

right now i got my overheads right on top of the drummer, (me for the moment) and i'm gonna try to get them closer to the toms, i want them a little more Above the kit instead of behind it, thats how its supposed to be,?right?

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by mattamatta

Hard limited room mics in a 100X100X20' space, all wood floors, with a mic in the kick. No close mics.

Yeah, that's the stuff.

That's what I dream of at night.
Actually once I did have a dream in which I saw this house with a huge like 100X75' room, wood floored, with nothing but one pillar about 2/3 of the way across the long end, and I thought to myself, in the dream, that would sound sweet for recording drums.

Isn't that how John Bonham's drums were recorded?

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by earworm

right now i got my overheads right on top of the drummer, (me for the moment) and i'm gonna try to get them closer to the toms, i want them a little more Above the kit instead of behind it, thats how its supposed to be,?right?

Correct.

And fix that f*cking snare, will ya?

[xstatic]

Certainly fix the snare. If it sounds like crap, putting a 414 underneath it will only ensure that in the mix you can always hear how crappy it sounds

There really isn't a rule to overheads. Put them where they sound best. In fact, you can set them up in such a way that you can give the drummer a "new" stereo image if he is set up fairly wierd. I usually put the overheads half way between the drummer himself and the ported head on the kick. Then I put each overhead 1/3 of the way in (from left and right) from the outer edge of the widest cymbals. Thats what I usually use for a starting point. If I really need to emphasize the toms, I bring the overheads in from behind the drummer. Either way I try and keep them about 3 feet above the average cymbal height. Of course all of those positions are subject to change after I hear the drummer play on tape and see his set-up

[northsiderap]

Let's see... Mic three of the four snares with the SM57s. Use the stereo mk012s for L/R overheads or XY room mics.

Use the 421s for both kicks and the kick drum for both low toms. Use the beyer m201 for the remaining snare drum.

Put the C414 down the hallway somewhere.

If I'm short on mics for a kit I sometimes pair up the toms and mic 2 at once midway or below on the shells. Seems to work for cymbal-happy drummers. Sometimes drummers have good kick or snare mics that they can bring.

It's always nice to have a sweet high room and use only a mono overhead or an XY overhead. Many people do it.

[usernamebob]

okay, first step.. tell the drummer that he way over compensating for his penis size..

second step, chuck one overhead directly above the snare facing down and the other one over the drummers shoulder.. now grab a mic cable or something and use it to measure and make sure they're exactly the same distance from the snare.
chuck the m201 on snare top and a 57 on the bottom, chuck the 602 in the kick and another 57 on the batter side. use the 421's on the floor toms.

now.. this is the part that I'm not to sure how will come out but give it a try..

Grab the 414 and switch it over to figure 8 and chuck it above the middle tom on it's side (so the pickup patern is pointing out to both the other toms and catching abit of the splashes)

now get the other 57.. and use it to beat the drummer senseless

[earworm]

awesome replies,
the recording was OK, i experimented alot with different methods,

doesn't sound bad what i achieved, mp3's will start appearing soon
already had a test mp3 online but first wanna edit the drums a bitmore
(check "how do you pan your guitars...theres the link )

ps, if you put one mic above the snare, and one above the drummers shoulder,
is this second mic (shouldermic) pointing downwards or is it in an angle, looking at the toms?

i used a XY pair, my stereo image is less wide than the AB method i used on previous recordings but its more stable

i ended up doing this:

m201 on snare
e602 on kick
sm57 on small tom
421 on second small tom
421 between the two floor toms
c414 above the drumkit, on the middle-small tom, this mic picked up
all the small toms and the splash cymbals in the centre of the kit
and the mk012's as an XY pair looking at the toms

cymbals and hihats are more than clear enough, toms are loud enough,
same for kick and snare, not a bad result i think..for a beginner

u guys rock ! thanks for the support!

[Sloan]

I'd tell the drummer to listen to the Beatles.

[Ironklad Audio]

this last weekend i recorded a guy with a 9-piece kit, stuffed into my TINY room, and ended up using the following:

left kick - audix d6
right kick - audix d4
snare - audix i5
picollo snare/hat - sm-81, from underneath w/ phase reversed
left rack toms - sm-57
right rack toms - sm-57
floor tom - audix d2
OH's - rode nt-2a, configured in a spaced pair

then we sampled each of the kicks, with the d6 inside, a 57 on the beater, nt-2a on the resonant head...also sampled both snares with the i5 on top, 57 on bottom, sm-81 on the side of the shell...then i used drumagog to mix the samples with the performance, and things sounded pretty good. the only issue i've run into is that there's a lot of snare in the OH's that are drowning out not only the snare mic, but the sample as well

the 57's really do a pretty good job of picking up pairs of toms - just stick them in the gap between, about 6-8 in. back, angled a little bit down towards the surface of the toms...the thing i like about doing the toms in pairs like that is that it seems to naturally give an accurate stereo image

[littledog]

This is more general advice:

In this day of ubiquitous home recording, almost every town of reasonable size has at least a half dozen home studios - and usually a whole lot more. You should network as much as possible to seek out and become friendly with some of your local colleagues.

That way, when a situation like this arises, you can call around and borrow some gear as needed. Maybe you won't get someone to lend you a couple of U-47's, but getting your hands on three or four more SM-57's shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Everyone wins when you share gear with each other.

[Halion]

You could hire some mics. If that enables you to get a killer sound it will be worth it (the customer will be pleased and you'll make more money off them another day).

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Zaphod B

Isn't that how John Bonham's drums were recorded?

It depends what album you are talking about. And, really, it didn't matter how Bonham was recorded, it would still be great.