70`s Prog sound

[Nakatira]

Hi I`ve just bought a presonus firepod, and a bundle of mics.
Including "2 shure sm57,1 shure sm58, 2 sp b1, 1 b52, and one mxl v67".
so thats what I have to use.

My question is the following how do I get that dry and lovely prog rock sound from the 70`s, "bill bruford, carl palmer, andy ward, and ect".

I`ve heard that compression is supposed to play a big part,

any thing else mic palcement?

for the record; sorrry cant affors any tube stuff yet, nor any expensive mic pres like api, neve and etc.

[Rickson Gracie]

Be prepared to for people on this board telling you that the ONLY way to get that sound is playing EXACTLY like those guys mentioned and having the same exact high-end vintage gear.

I personally wouldnt listen to them and still try to achieve the sound youre after. As far as "getting that sound" I would really listen to and study your favorite recordings and try to emulate the style, recording and mixing elements that they used to the best of your abilities.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Nakatira

Hi I`ve just bought a presonus firepod, and a bundle of mics.
Including "2 shure sm57,1 shure sm58, 2 sp b1, 1 b52, and one mxl v67".
so thats what I have to use.

My question is the following how do I get that dry and lovely prog rock sound from the 70`s, "bill bruford, carl palmer, andy ward, and ect".

I`ve heard that compression is supposed to play a big part,

any thing else mic palcement?

for the record; sorrry cant affors any tube stuff yet, nor any expensive mic pres like api, neve and etc.

It's simple. Record in a very dead room with lots of muffling on the heads. That's the ol' 70s sound.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Nakatira

Hi I`ve just bought a presonus firepod, and a bundle of mics.
Including "2 shure sm57,1 shure sm58, 2 sp b1, 1 b52, and one mxl v67".
so thats what I have to use.

My question is the following how do I get that dry and lovely prog rock sound from the 70`s, "bill bruford, carl palmer, andy ward, and ect".

I`ve heard that compression is supposed to play a big part,

any thing else mic palcement?

for the record; sorrry cant affors any tube stuff yet, nor any expensive mic pres like api, neve and etc.

The 70's was the time when individually mic'ing drums came into play big time, and probably most of the recordings made during that time involved single-headed drums with muffling on them.

The drummers who did use double-headed drums without muffling stood out like sore thumbs(such as John Bonham).

The Big kit to own back then was the Ludwig "Octaplus" which had 8 (6"-16") singleheaded toms, what were then called "Concert" toms. These can still be purchased, but it's a waste of money - just take the bopttom heads off the kit - it's the same thing.
I've know drummers who liked the sound of single-headed drums, and some of them - instead of using singleheaded drums, actually made a hole in the bottom head - just like most drummers do on a kick drum.

That allowed them to mount a mic to the bottom hoop using an LP "CLAW" and the SM57 could actually stick through the hole in the bottom drum head.
(One used Evans oilheads on tops so he wouldn't have to put a bunch of muffling on the heads.)

If you wanted to do this "on the cheap" and was after your own set of "concert toms" for recording I would suggest a set of Rototoms with Pinstripe heads and Remo Muff'ls. You can pick up the full set of Rototoms off of Ebay all day long for probably $350 to $400. (In fact there are 3 full sets of Rototoms on E-bay right now. I looked because I have had this "affair" with the Rototoms since the 80's. A few years ago, I picked up an entire set of the original Chrome Rototoms (Chrome over steel) versus the Black Rototoms (Black Epoxy on Cast Aluminum) from the late 70's and early 80's that were still in the boxes. I got lucky, and found a place that had bought a ton of them back when Slingerland went out of business. All the Rototoms were made by Remo - and other companies sold them with their own logo on them.

Anyway, what you're after is a single headed drum - tuned low- with a lot of muffling on it, and close mic'ed - an SM57 was probably used almost universally.



Tim

[Nakatira]

thanks for the reply`s guys, really apreciate it.
and a special thanks to you Tim for the lecture in toms and sucth, I learnt a lot there.
how about the bass drum? slingleheaded as well?

[Tim Brown]

Definitely a single headed kick. That dry sound comes from not having any resonant heads on the kit. Actually, probably most of the recordings made today still use a single head on the kick. That real "in your face" but dead kick sound that is still prevalent in music today is a singleheaded drum, as is the standard "country slap" where they use a felt mallet on a super loose head and a lot of muffling.


Tim

[Tim Brown]

One thing I wanted to add was if you had the single headed toms and they were well muffled, you might be able to get away with a pair of overheads.

Here's how I would do it.

Raise the crash cymbals up a bit, and put the "overheads" below the height of these cymbals. What that will do, is give you more of a drum heave sound, and less "room" sound, as well as less cymbal.


Or you could just mic each pair of toms, and not use any overheads. Obviously, you wouldn't be gating the toms, and your cymbal spead would be dependent upon how you panned these tom mics, you would have to pay attention to this in order to minimize any phasing problems, but this would also allow you to get a similar sound without needing a dozen mic's just for the drumkit.

Just thought I'd throw a few ideas your way since that was the type of drumsound I had for years. (We had an 8 track home studio during the late 80's and early 90's, and my bass player was a Prog head, so we were always trying to get those old Rush, Yes, and ELP sounds down.

Somewhere around here I still have some tracks, if I can find something worth playing _ I'll put something online and send you a link.


Tim

[PhilGood]

You know, a good cheap way to get that 70s single head tom sound is with 1/2" foam weather stripping. It works just like the muff'ls Tim mentioned but waaaay cheaper. I used that in the early 80s. Just mount it about 1/2" away from the shell, using small amounts to get the sound you want. It's usually denser than muff'ls, so you need less.

[Nakatira]

thanks for the replys guys; "underheads" removed, now I`ll just need to tune em` a bit down.

I`ll be sure to try out the idea`s on the mic palcement, (thanks again tim)

whats; "1/2" foam weather stripping", sorry I`m norwegian is there an other word for it or could anyone explain?
It sounded intresting, just want to know what to get.

thanks a lot.

[PhilGood]

Jeez, I would have thought Norway get cold weather now and then. I may have to move there from California if its warmer.

Weather stripping is used to prevent air from flowing through the space around doors and windows during cold weather. It has an adhesive side which attaches to the door jamb so when the door closes, the foam seals the gap. Weather stipping (don't know what its called in Norway) can be found at almost any hardware store.

[Nakatira]

ok, I got it, I just wasent sure about what it was at first, I thought it might be a brand name for some drum equipment or something.

we`ve got a few of those, after all I live in a very cold, windy and rainy place.

thanks for the reply though.

Maybee I`ll post a recording when I get to try out the new specifications.

great forum...

[Tim Brown]

You know, I never thought about you guys possibly not knowing what weather stipping is.

Okay, Foam weather stipping is what we use over here on older windows and doors; older houses had what were called "Mutton & Sash" windows, and the window had a cable on each side, and there would be a 5 or 10 pound counter weight attached to each side of the wall so that when you raised the window, a pair of weights were lowered inside the walls inside a "track" to help keep the windo raised; ingenious design - the only problem is that they didn't "seal" very well, so during the winter - the cold would get in, and in the summer, the heat would get in. So, they came up with weather foam stripping to help solve this problem.

It's a piece of foam that usually comes in a roll and it comes in various sizes - usually a roll that a drummer would use would be abut 1/4" x 1/2" or 1/2" x 1/2" and about 20' long. It's got glue on one side, and has a piece of waxy paper stuck to it, so you can pull the waxtape, and have a fresh clean glue surface.

I'm not sure where you have to go to get building supplies such as wood, sheet rock (Gypsum board) or screws and nails, but those types of places should have foam weather stripping.

I just didn't mention foam weatherstripping because I don't like using it; it leaves the glue on the heads if you try to pull foam off the head. So, that's why I opted for Remo Muff'ls. Once you have the Muff'ls, you have the option of putting them on, or taking them off, no matter what heads you use, and there's no residue on the heads, and they muff'ls remain intact.


Tim

[Nakatira]

again thanks for the info, Tim.

I got the idea of what it was, and yes we use it and depend on it to keep us warm and safe through our cold winters.

Even the name for it "weather stripping", should have caught my attention but, hey Its better to be sure.

but again all you guys thanks for the input

[Tim Brown]

Doh! I feel like an idiot after seeing you posted that you knew what it was while I was posting. Hahaha

You want to put it on the heads about where the pinstripe line is on a pinstripe head.


Tim