Recording Mixdowns to PC

[technominds]

Here's my problem. I am using a Layla24 Soundcard, all outputs to my 24 channel behringer mixer... the mix sounds great coming out of my Alesis MK2 monitors... but when i record it back to my PC.. it sounds ENTIRELY different... it sounds completely limited and much smaller than when i hear it live.

I was thinking of buying an external recorder... that way whatever the speakers are hearing... surely this device will get the same signal... i just cant understand why such a high-range soundcard would leave me in the dark like this....

Any suggestions?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Could you explain your signal path a little better? Your Layla *outputs* are going into your mixer and then back into your computer again? I don't quite follow that. Perhaps you could clarify (including where your Alesis' are monitoring from, the Layla or the mixer).

But without knowing that I can say that it is quite important to keep your signal path as short as possible (a lesson I re-learned the hard way myself last week ). If you are going through even just one too many A/D//D/A conversions or sending the signal through your mixer one more time than necessary, that can have a huge effect on the details and dynamics of the recorded waveform.

G.

[AdrianFly]

Originally Posted by technominds

Here's my problem. I am using a Layla24 Soundcard, all outputs to my 24 channel behringer mixer... the mix sounds great coming out of my Alesis MK2 monitors... but when i record it back to my PC.. it sounds ENTIRELY different... it sounds completely limited and much smaller than when i hear it live.

I was thinking of buying an external recorder... that way whatever the speakers are hearing... surely this device will get the same signal... i just cant understand why such a high-range soundcard would leave me in the dark like this....

Any suggestions?

I would slowly move away from using your PC to record. I know this doesn't solve any problems but it was this and many other things that nearly caused me to give up recording my own music entirely.

However, your first step would be to get that external recorder.


//AdrianFly

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by AdrianFly

I would slowly move away from using your PC to record. I know this doesn't solve any problems but it was this and many other things that nearly caused me to give up recording my own music entirely.

However, your first step would be to get that external recorder.


//AdrianFly

That's not very good advice. What if he has an issue with an external recorder, should he give up recording and just play live? What if he has an issue with an instrument, take up bass fishing? Overcome your obstacles, don't cave into them. There are many very knowledgeable people on this board that will offer advice if you explain your gear a bit better.

[technominds]

OK Thank you for the replies.

8 Balanced Outputs through to 8 Inputs of the mixer.
On each channel of the mixer, they are selected to go to the main mix.
Main mix outputs back to the Layla24 inputs (again balanced).
Monitors are plugged into Bus 1+2 (L+R) and this bus is selected on every channel also.

In the Layla Console Panel (Controls the soundcard) i have everything set to -10 so that my mixer doesnt explode on impact.

Ive tried pluggin the Layala inputs into the Bus that i usually listen to, but it seems i have the same effect of a smaller recording. The recording is done in sonar, at the highest possible bitrate in Wav form.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by technominds

8 Balanced Outputs through to 8 Inputs of the mixer.
On each channel of the mixer, they are selected to go to the main mix.
Main mix outputs back to the Layla24 inputs (again balanced).
Monitors are plugged into Bus 1+2 (L+R) and this bus is selected on every channel also.

Maybe I am just too thick-skulled and not getting this right, but I still am not sure I understand why you have the outs on the Layla going into the mixer; i.e. why is the Layla before the mixer in you chain? Unless I am missing something stupid (wouln't be the first time for me, gang ), you'd probably be best off running a simple chain of instruments-> mixer->layla->PC and monitoring off the Layla or the PC on playback.

Also, just as a test, you might want to see how it all sounds - signal quality-wise, not mix-wise - if you were to, again, just as a test, bypass the mixer and record a sample direct into the Layla. If there is a huge difference, you may have a dynamic range problem in the mixer due to bad/aged preamps, faders or trim pots (This sounds goofy, but I have had this problem myself, see other posts.)

G.

[FALKEN]

hey dude. there are a few things that could be happening...

one is that the bus outputs are not pushing the same signal as your mains, and might even be mono, which would explain why it sounds "smaller". another reason could be your gain staging...

what are you using to record the mix? sonar as it is playing? you might want to look into using a separate program to record the mix.

and finally if you are playing back the mix through the mixer after you have recorded it, it is probably going through a pair of channels that you have eq'd and panned and such for your mix, not a clean pair...does this make sense? how does the headphone output sound?

[technominds]

I make sure i play it back through non-eq'ed channels.... i do record it back to sonar.. should i not be doing this? As for the mono/stereo idea... if im hearing it out of my monitors as i want it, and the exact same signal is being sent back... why is it not the same...

I think i may have to invest in a CD Burner or maybe splash out on ADAT... would this be a definate solution?

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by technominds

if im hearing it out of my monitors as i want it, and the exact same signal is being sent back... why is it not the same...

...

Originally Posted by technominds

Main mix outputs back to the Layla24 inputs (again balanced).
Monitors are plugged into Bus 1+2 (L+R) and this bus is selected on every channel also.

Correct me if I am wrong but your main mix outputs going to the Layla; Monitors plugged into Bus 1 + 2 = not the same?

Originally Posted by technominds

I think i may have to invest in a CD Burner or maybe splash out on ADAT... would this be a definate solution?

try this (save a backup of your mix file first):

condense some of your Layla outputs. Use 6 instead of 8.

then, using the extra 2 outputs you saved, connect your monitors, and in your Layla Console set those outputs to monitor the inputs you are using to record the mix.

then what you record should be exactly what you hear.

this might help you isolate the problem.

[technominds]

[QUOTE=FALKEN]...
Correct me if I am wrong but your main mix outputs going to the Layla; Monitors plugged into Bus 1 + 2 = not the same?
[QUOTE]

This is why i cant understand the problem....

I will try your idea of connection my monitors to Layla, although this isnt really a permanent solution... although it can show me the possibilities of the cause...

Thanks

[nonreversebird]

Ok, I do the same thing, my music is played out of 1 computer through a mackie mixer and external gear and then the master output XLR goes to another computer into a DAL CardDeluxe , computer number 2. So the best way to get the mix to sound good is to listen to what computer 2 is getting, not the playback computer. Hook up your monitering speakers to the output channel of the sound card on computer 2. I am done mixing and if you are curious on how my stuff sounds go to the site in the sig. I like it. The mixes on that site are limited up with a little enhance algorithm in Sound Forge and thats it. I like my guitar loud so there you go. I am not looking for the super NU - Metal mix or a more low volume guitar mix. I wanted the guitar to be out there. And it is. But you can hear everthing else. And let me tell you something it was hard as shit to get that mix. Good luck

[Fire Dome]

Hey. it could be that your board is added(or subtracting) to the sound of your mix. The same things happen in my soundcraft desk when i mixdown from the board back into the pc.
Hope that helps

Dave

[SouthSIDE Glen]

A whole lot of conversion going on there. There's at least three conversions between digital and analog happening in that chain, which can introduce a whole slough of distortion to the final mix signal including loss of dynamics, resolution and sample accuracy. It can be the digital equivalent of a 3rd generation dub on analog tape. And that's not even including the added noise and lessend dynamics caused by sending the signal through the mixer at least twice.

[Track Rat]

I mix this way (from computer/Cakewalk9 to MOTU/HD24 to analog console, back to a pair of analog ins of the MOTU to a stereo track of Cakewalk. It ALWAYS sounds exactly the same. What bit depth/ sampling rate are you recording at? Saving as .wav (or AIFF on a MAC)?

[nonreversebird]

Wait I reread your thread and what others are saying.

You are using only 1 computer right?

If thats the case been there and done that. I could never get it to work. Thats why years ago I explored other ways of doing it and found that running my XLR outs from my mixer to a completely different computer with a VERY nice audio card was the way to go. I do like the DAL Carddeluxe for PCI. It is expensive but was worth it. Anyone want to buy a Card D +
?

[Farview]

buss 1 and 2 normally end up at the main output. If you have buss 1 and 2 hitting the mains in mono, you wouldn't know it because you are listening to them separately. Not to mention that you are running the signal to two places and then summing them to the computer. Doesn't this board have a monitor out? Headphone output? something?

[technominds]

I am using Bus 1+2 for monitoring, the Bus's are not sent to Main mix. I think i will buy a seperate 24-bit CD Recorder or a Hard Disk Recorder to get my mix accurate. Maybe a second hand ADAT recorder... any advice on what to buy?

[Farview]

ADATs are not 24 bit. I think you have a problem with the way your board is set up. If so, you will have the same problem with an external mixdown deck.

[AdrianFly]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

That's not very good advice. What if he has an issue with an external recorder, should he give up recording and just play live? What if he has an issue with an instrument, take up bass fishing? Overcome your obstacles, don't cave into them. There are many very knowledgeable people on this board that will offer advice if you explain your gear a bit better.

I wholeheartedly agree that there are professionals available to assist with every need on this board. Hell, back 10 years ago Harvey was giving me tips over Dalnet IRC chat network.

I also agree with overcoming obstacles as opposed to caving in to them. I guess I didn't mean to be so negative and I apologize for that.

Unfortunately, I'm more of a musician/songwriter than a "PC" based home recording enthusiast and found most "PC" based designs to waste alot of my time. Time is money and at the time I'd rather be moving forward than pulling my hair out over silly "PC" problems.

I've had no problems with Macintosh or Protools however.


//AdrianFly

[FALKEN]

did monitoring from the layla not work?

what board are you using

[Halion]

Errr, does the word "behringer" not stand for instant degradation of the signal quality, and does that explain the whole problem?

[technominds]

Ok, well i did a brief mixdown... its a song i produced for a friend and he came over to record it last week... the mixdown only took 10 minutes or so... tell me if this sounds decent..

Listen Here

Any advice would be great.

[technominds]

*bump* *bump* *bump* *bump*

[Track Rat]

Sounds decent enough.

[jmorris]

a phasing issue??