Creating a hit that will hook.

[Chuckschwandt]

Creating the hit song...hummmmm. Ever read
those books that claim there are enduring
characteristics to a hit song ? Ever wondered
why there are songs with generational durability;
they keep going and going like the energizer
bunny and never get old ? There must be something
there. Let's brain storm it....

[foo]

Hmmm, let's see ...

Great tune, nice changes, lyrics that a lot of people can identify with, good vocalist, good players, great production. Seems simple enough, huh?

... or be really good-looking and have access to one of the 'puppetmasters'

foo

[Chuckschwandt]

Hi Foo,

How about Weird Al ? What does he have
that got the puppetmasters attention ?

bewildered,
Chuck

[monty]

An endearing charismatic persona, hootspah, a sense of humor, talent, connections, years of experience. AND, he can play the accordian.

[John Sayers]

i reckon writing hit songs is like shooting a film - film makers have what they call a cutting ratio - like they shoot 10 reels but the film is only one reel long - 10:1 I believe that for every 10 + songs you write only about 1 has the possibility of being a hit song - you've just gotta keep at it!!
cheers

[smirky]

People must be able to sing the chorus ONCE they've heard it. The shouldn't be able to get it out of their minds again. They should hum it in the morning after waking up and in the evening before falling asleep (and during work, of course).
That's it: a killer melody that gets stuck in the listener's mind...

[gap8u]

If the 10-1 ratio is realistic for TV shows also then there must be some awful ideas in somebody's head that we never get to see! Anyway I think a lot has to do with us not getting serious with the marketing of our stuff because some of these songs I hear by youse guys are dadgum good. Maybe we just need to find the way to niche ourselves!

[Prophet_81]

A great song is genuine. It tugs at you the first time and you can't quite remember it after hearing it just once(at least for me). The artist has something in mind that he wants the listener to walk away with. I'm not talking about the shiznit on the top forty. They seem really impulsive and short-acting. A great song isn't motivated by money. It says something fresh; even if the idea is old. The greatest songwriters in the world get paid to crank out tunes. Tunes that are well thought-out, but they don't mean anything if they aren't genuine.

[Chuckschwandt]

Hi Gap,

Great point you made. I am guilty of not
pushing the market with my CDs. I get
excited about writing, recording, and performing,
but draw back on the leg work into stores,
radio, and etc. The marketing part is just
boring. The labels have the edge here. Staying
independent has its benefits and draw backs.

Chuck

[Chuckschwandt]

Hi Prophet,

The top 40 stuff does fade fast, not enduring.
You believe the song must be genuine to endure.
I started to think about that a little. Remember
when Vietnam was coming to an end in the late 60s?
The songs that were written by Jimi Hendrix,
CSN & Young, Dylan, and others have endured well.
CSN& Young recorded "Ohio" when the college
students were gunned down. - I think you have made
a great point here for me. - Thanks...

Strumming,
Chuck


[Edited by Chuckschwandt on 08-16-2000 at 12:20]

[gap8u]

All good stuff.....Ain't this just the coolest "hooby-pursuit" in the world?

[Chuckschwandt]

Originally posted by Chuckschwandt
I was watching VH1 last night with their
new best 100 artists of all history. They
were picked by the artist community, not the
general public. It was so interesting to
see who & why the top 10 were chosen. The
Beatles were number one and the Rolling
stones second. I thought, wow, the Beatles
broke up years ago and they are still considered
better than the stones, who still exist. Dylan
was in the top ten as well. All were revolutionaries,
standing for some historical sensitive issue.
I suppose that was key to making their mark
in time.

Chuck

[foo]

You can't be serious.

Weird Al's claim to fame is as a novelty act (albeit a good one)

He took very popular songs from the Hit Parade and parodied the hell out of 'em, and the video.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he ever wrote anything, did he? Apart from (presumably) the lyrics? So he was a comedy act, not a music act, n'est ce pas?

... and anyway, he was good-looking enough to make it on his looks, he didn't need a puppetmaster.

foo

[virtual.ray]

The guy is a freakin' riot! He makes me laugh almost every time I see a new video of his.The takeoff on "Beat It" is hilarious,especially the "smoking" guitar lead segment.I like him for the same reason I liked Zappa; he knows how to take the piss out of pompous posers and pseudo angst ridden alternatoids alike and I like some of his stuff better than the original song it parodies.

[Prophet_81]

Chuck, you are what Rock n' Roll is. That's an excellent point. I would also like to say that not everyone is trying to be a milestone in music history. Some bands and artists aren't out for that and I doubt it happens if you are out for that. People really respond to what these greats you have mentioned were saying.

My mom once told me about the way a lot of people feel about country music. The understand what the singer is talking about. People respond emotionally.

Again, not every artist is out to conquer the world. At least the REAL ARTISTS aren't. That's not the point of music. It's about communication. Expression. People listen...

[Prophet_81]

Hello, I'm a fan of Weird Al. I'd like to add that Weird Al is indeed an artist that writes a few of his own tunes every once in a while. His records are composed of about 60% parody and the rest his own. You could simply consider him a comedy act, but he writes too. A writer is not classified by his intention. If you considered only the comedic songs that the BareNaked Ladies have written, do you consider them a comedy act?

[foo]

Not familiar with any of their stuff.

Let me be more specific about Weird Al.

How many of the songs that he wrote were Top 20 hits?

I think that he became famous because of the parodies (which were good!)

Did he write anything that was successful on it's own - (and defining successful is Top 20, which is not necessarily my usual definition as I believe music is about art, not about sales, but in the context of this thread [hit songs], Top 20 is the definition)

As far as I know, Al didn't write any hit songs. Including his own stuff on his records surely doesn't count. It's a way to make some cash from the publishing rights.

Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland wrote the occasional tune for a Police album, but we all know that people bought the Police stuff for the Sting songs. Check out 'The Singles' Everything on there was written by Sting.


The original question was 'How do you write a hit song' and 'How do songs keep going like the energizer bunny'

Ever see/hear any Weird Al parodies of anything older than about a year anywhere ever?

He filled (having created) a nice little niche for himself, and exploited it very well - but great songwriter?

Hmmm, let's see ... John Lennon, Paul Simon, Townes Van Zandt, George Gershwin, Weird Al Yankovic, Irving Berlin, Lyle Lovett, Paul McCartney.

No, sorry, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.
Maybe it makes sense to you.

Let's get real!

foo

[John Sayers]

Have you ever stopped to consider how many adats, tascams, 1" 2" 1/2" computers, 4tracks, 8 tracks etc etc are recording right this very moment with the artists dreaming they have written a No 1 hit - it's pretty scarey??

[Prophet_81]

LOL... Hey, Foo, I didn't say he was a great songwriter. I just said he does write his own songs and not only parodies. No, they've never been on the Top 20. You should buy an album if you don't own one already. His songs are as funny, if not funnier than the songs he makes a laugh of. I'm honest about buying one. Go get it!

[gap8u]

I have read this thread and just now something dawned on me...something jono just left here made me think...i ain't sure if i have ever written anything that would be top 20 and i sure can't record it well enough but i have written enough stuff so that when we(just folks i know) get together i am usually pickin on the ole 6string and we might sing a popular song or two of someone elses but it is so cool because usually everyone has a favorite of something of mine and there are a few old ones (five-six years) and we always sing them...its cool to play my stuff and they sing...connection...a big issue when considering longevity in mho!

[Salabim]

Weird Al is a pisser...the song 'Polka Power' (a rip off of just about every no.1 song in the last 12 months cracked me up...

Back to the Hit song thing, i think that luck would have to play a part in it. You gotta have the right song, in the right place, with the right words at the right time...

Tim

[foo]

You're right - I really should have a funny polka in my bag of tricks - and no I'm not making fun of you.

Play a polka in the middle of the last set in any Midwest club and you'll have as much fun as you can handle.

The problem is I'm trying to save up for my soundcard and my sampler, so I'VE GOT TO STOP BUYING STUFF.

But here in Mississippi, there is a law on the books:

Play accordian
Go to jail



foo

[Chuckschwandt]

Seems like creating a song with a heart felt
lyrical topic is very key in releasing a hit.
As mentioned by others, hit songs with less than
that aim have a much shorter duration. I think
this says alot about us as human beings; we are
influenced most by what moves the heart. I think
those who write sincere songs are not going for
a hit, but rather want to communicate the topics
"impact" on their life. Like Ray Charles said the
other night, if it moves me, there is a good chance
it will move somebody else (not a exact quote).

Chuck

[Prophet_81]

Chuck, you've just solidified a thought in me. The fact that these songs with such content are written and released less often in the industry means that the industry is anticipating our attention span. That insults me.

I guess it's just the "go with what works" attitude. It's true that the songs sell fast and in large quantities. It brings more money to the record companies every year.

That also reminds me; I come from a small town in KC, Missouri called Lee's Summit. There the radio plays only the top forty hits and every hour. On some of those stations I've noticed that it isn't even about music anymore. It's about radio...

Small towns like the one I come from don't have a lot to listen to. The radio plays what is selling in the other states. Here in Chicago, I hear new songs every week that would never play in Lee's Summit.

It's all about the attention span, right? Maybe not... I mean, I've known people that feel they must avoid their true feelings. Their feelings, period. If it doesn't have that upbeat tempo, if someone has to think about it, some of us won't even give the music a chance.

It's all spelled out these days. Very little symbolism. They just give you the whole meal... Eventually, one gets full. In the same way, the songs get old. It's like, "been there, done that..." Do you know what I'm saying?!

Everyone is becoming numb...

Everyone is full...

[Chuckschwandt]

Hi Prophet 81,

Interesting thoughts you have there. I think
the entertainment industry understands more
about human cravings than we care to know. In
fact that has alot to do with why many
entertainment people privately study at the
church of scientology. Like I said, they are
wizzards at knowing how to make money. I am
a Bible college graduate, and it amazes me
how much these people know about what really
tugs on the heart of humanity. Beauty, fame,
intelligence, power, and wealth are the five
big carrots that the entertainers use religiously
to get us hook line and sinker. Oh well, I think
it will come clear beyond the blue some day...

take care,
Chuck