6 speaker PA system?!?

[KaptnKrunch]

Hi! This is my first post here! (handshake)
Ok. Here is my situation. I have a $3000 budget for a PA System. The PA System is for a small Church, about 50 x 35 with a stage at one end. Right now we have 2 Peavey mains and a peavey mixer and amp combo.
What we would like to do:

-Two speakers in the front to replace the Peaveys.
-Two speakers in the middle of the building.
-Two speakers at the back.

We want to do this because, with our current system, the output is really loud on the front row, but not loud enough on the back row. The first thing I thought about was small Bose speakers with a sub. Cool. Also expensive. I can't really find any model of Bose speakers that are what I'm looking for. Not really loudspeakers, because that would be overkill. Just some small speakers around 100 watts each max. I might not even need that much, since there are so many speakers.


Ok. Long winded, aren't I? LOL

I KNOW that we want the Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro mixer, and 4 cordless mics. (We are also moving the Board to the back of the house, thus the need for the cordless mics.)
This puts us back about $1500, leaving only $1500 more for the speakers.

NOW. Monitors. We want to get small speakers on the stage for monitors too, but that can wait. We can work with what we have on the monitors until we get more cash. (Use the old head to power the stage monitors.)


So we have 1500 dollars for speakers. at least 6 of them, and a sub would be nice, but optional.


Let the brainstorming begin!

-How much power do I need for a room this size?
-Will feedback be a bigger problem in a multispeaker environment?

Crazy Idea.... Would a 7.1 channel home theater system carry the building, or is this just crazy? I want real answers on this one though. Don't just tell me it won't work without an explanation.

-Can this be done?
-Not enough money?
-...Any ways I can save money?(More money money for outboard gear!!! LOL)



I'm really interested in the home theater idea though. Complete system with a lot of power. Pretty reasonable price too.


Think out of the box? What box? There is no box in my world.

[KaptnKrunch]

I've Just found a line of JBL speakers called Control. The're small, about 150 watts of power each, and look like just about what I'm looking for. Pretty Cheap, too. LOL

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by KaptnKrunch

I've Just found a line of JBL speakers called Control. The're small, about 150 watts of power each, and look like just about what I'm looking for. Pretty Cheap, too. LOL

Yup, good little install speakers.

What Peavey boxes do you have? In a room that size, a single pair of boxes, properly placed and EQed, should be enough to provide smooth coverage, especially with a decent mixer, amp, and any reasonable mic. You may find what you have is better than you think, if properly used.

Ceiling height is gonna be the determining factor in that, though.

ps, you are gonna need a snake. You could save some $$ by using wired mics, as you will need a snake anyway.

[boingoman]

Check this out. Peavey gives copies of their excellent book "Celestial Sound" free to churches.

Click on "Get your free copy"

http://www.sanctuary-series.com/

[boingoman]

Some of the articles are available online.

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/

This is a great article on loudspeaker placement, especially the diagrams on page two. It may help you understand a bit about what is happenening in your room.

http://www.peavey.com/support/techno...aker_array.cfm


Remember, let the pros hang loudspeakers. In many places, insurance policies can be void if an unbonded person rigs boxes.

[KaptnKrunch]

Thanks for the link on the Peavey stuff.

As far as the speakers go, they look like the have 10 inch woofers in them, I can't tell what exact model of Peavey they are, because they've been there for years.

The ceiling looks to be about 10 ft?
There is a divider coming down about 1 ft. and a half at the stage.
I have some pics of the speakers, and where they're mounted if anyone would like me to email them.

I've already brought up the idea of running a snake, but it seems the consensus is to get rid of all the cables running everywhere on the stage. If we don't get a snake, all I'll have to run to the stage is the monitor output, and possibly another line for a DI'd bass (through the attic). The wires are really getting on everyones nerves right now.

The mixer is one of the Peavey mixer/amp combo things. I can't tell you the exact name brand, because I'm at home right now, and I haven't bothered to write it down, BUT it's pretty maxed out. It has 600 watt output. I think about 400 watts are being used all in all. Right now we're running the monitors patched in through one side, and the mains from the other. It has 8 XLR inputs and all are full but 2.

I would LOVE to be able to EQ the monitor mix seperately!

I think it sounds about as good as it can, without more gear.
Dispertion (Did I spell it write? LOL) is the main thing with the speakers, though. Can't get them up as high(vertically, not frequency) as they need to be. They have the power to do the job, it's just the high contrast from the fron of the house to the back. I don't think eq would help much, possibly make the sound less harsh, but you would still have to turn the volume up louder to compensate for the back row. The speakers seem to be very directional. See my delimma? ( delemma LOL I don't know.)

The only thing I could come up with is multiple small speakers, but there could be another solution, I just haven't found it yet.

I had no Idea about the insurance thing! I think somebody from the church put up the old speakers! LOL They're sitting on some kind of shelf coming off the walls!

Before it's all over, I'm probably going to get the big boys over to look at it anyway. They might think of some other way to remedy the situation, and save me some $$.

[boingoman]

Yeah, call other churches in your area who are happy with their installers.

10 feet ain't very high, and that divider screws things up anyway.

Post up those pics.

A couple of things occur to me:

Shooting those PVs at the back, and doing some front fill with a pair of Controls.

Mount them high in the center, and following the scenario above.

Doing what you said, and using a couple pairs of Controls mounted down the room.

Doing ceiling-mounted speakers, 4 or six.

Those two scenarios would probably mean a 70volt system, not a traditional amp setup. That is a lot of speaker wire to drive, and many amps won't drive six speakers. Long runs of speaker cable can eat up power.

In either case, you will want a new amp just for mains, and keep the PV for mons. And you might want to keep the PV boxes, as well, in case you guys do music. Get a couple of speaker stands.

And definitely a 31-band EQ. You can use one side for mains, and one side for mons.

You will need lines running from the mixer back to your amp, as well, besides the monitor lines. You can get a small snake with 4 lines back to stage, plus a few extra channels if something extra comes up. (It always does).

[KaptnKrunch]

Sounds good to me!

The bad thing is, our Homecoming Service is just over 2 weeks away, and everybody wants to know if I can have it in by then! 2 Weeks! LOL That's why I'm up at 2 in the morning trying to figure this all out. They just decided to do it on the spur of the moment I guess. They deligated me this afternoon... LOL I think I'll go talk to the people at All Pro Sound tomorrow afternoon....... When I get up.... LOL


2 weeks!

[KaptnKrunch]

Here is the divider thing, and a side view of one of the speakers from the stage.


It took me a while to get my pics into Fireworks and fiddle with them.

[KaptnKrunch]

speaker on the left side of the house.

[KaptnKrunch]

Front and center. You can't see the speakers on either side, but they're there. LOL

I don't think we're going to be able to put anything in the middle. If we did, you couldn't see the speaker.(like talking person... lol )

[KaptnKrunch]

View from the pulpit.

[KaptnKrunch]

Left side from pulpit. This is the last one.

Those are not spots on the pews, my lens was dirty or something.

[KaptnKrunch]

The reason some of these pics look so different is because I played with the color curves and stuff in Fireworks so you could see them better. The benches are different colors in each pic. LOL

[KaptnKrunch]

I'm going to sleep now. It's 3 in the morning.... snore..

[arjoll]

Hi

Just found this thread. Your Church looks slightly smaller than ours.

We're just running two Mackie C300's - very, very nice if you EQ them flat with an RTA. We can get them a bit higher though, which helps with dispersion. The active version is even better - bi-amped and sounds wonderful even without EQ.

Because of your problem getting sound to the back without deafening the front it might be worth seeing if the Bose Panaray MA12 speakers would help - they have a wide horizontal dispersion but a very narrow vertical beam - because of this Bose claim that they project twice as far back as a conventional speaker. If you want to do music you'd need to match a sub to them though.

Now I'm not familiar with US pricing on all of this - the Bose isn't going to be cheap, but I would recommending auditioning the Mackie C300's if they fit in your budget.

Regarding the mixer, we currently run the Behringher Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro. Yuck. Noisy FX, feels cheap (it was) and has died twice (at the worst possible times). Its only 18 months old and I'm currently trying for budget approval for its replacement - Mackie CFX20 (would like the SR series but I have to be realistic!).

Hope this helps in some way.

Cya
Andrew

[departingsoon]

I agree that bose panaray ma12($500) coupled with the panaray mb4 bass module(also around $500) would be the best bet in your situation. The ma12 has a very wide horozontal dispertion pattern (160 degrees), allowing you to cover your entire room with just one loudspeaker. One mb4 should pick up your low end nicely. Also if positioned right the zero verticle dispertion of the ma12 would eliminate any reflections off the ceiling or that brace.

Most importantly though the ma12 is a line array in itself composed of 12
2 1/2" drivers. To keep it simple the ma12 produces cylindrical waves instead of spherical waves that are produced by traditional loud speakers. They will behave very differently because a cylindrical wave only drives sound to the front and sides while the spherical will drive sound to the front, side, up, and down. Because spherical waves spend much of their energy verticaly the SPL will drop 6db per doubling of distance (inverse square law), giving you the loud up front, just right in the back effect. This is different for a line array due to its more efficient use of energy, only 3db drop per doubling of distance. This gives the speaker a longer throw and more uniform SPL throughout the building.

Also those 2 1/2" drivers will give a much better representation of the signal throughout their frequency range compared to a typical 10 or 12" driver simply because there is so much less mass to move, allowing them to react in an instant (less distortion). Also, with no passive crossover built in your amp has more accurate control over the drivers with less resistance.

Also, the ma12 is very resistant to feedback allowing you to position it behind the stage, over the performers heads at about a 10 degree foward tilt. This is a plus because it would eliminate the need for stage monitors. Just remember that because there is no vertical dispertion the speaker has to be aimed at listening level to receive direct sound.

One more thing you will need is the digital system controler also around $500.
It will provide you with preset active eq, cross over, limiting, and delay settings plus a few more bells and wistles.

All in all, for around $1500 you can have a realy nice and simple set up that will keep you and all listeners pleased for years to come.

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by departingsoon

Does anyone have experience with bose panaray ma12? It seems to be everything that I am looking for, except the frequency response cuts off at 12k. I am wondering how this will effect my high end before I buy.

You posted this question yesterday and then recommend this same system as the "best bet" to someone?


Bose=Crap

Your post looks like it was lifted from Bose marketing. You don't seem to understand any of it, as you interpreted most of it wrong. That's okay, it's bullshit when Bose says it, too, you just put your own stamp on it.

Looking at those pics should show you in any case those speakers are totally inappropriate for the venue.

[arjoll]

Hi - I think you're being a little harsh on Bose. I've used 802's a number of times for Church services and the like, and they work nicely in some environments where other systems crap out.

I agree they're not the be-all and end-all of sound; they're not good for very large gigs, but for a couple of hundred people at a service in the local school hall (a very echoey environment) and teamed with some JBL subs they performed admirably. Sounded significantly better than the amplified Peavy's that were installed there already! (you can just see one side in the attached photo)

I've heard the columns, and they're effective for speech. I suggested them in this thread because of the environment - whether they're worth the extra dollars or not is another story, and there may be better options out there. It would be worth auditioning them along with the Mackie's I suggested and the suggestions that you and others made here. You can't take anyone's word about speakers until you hear them in your environment.

Cya
Andrew

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by arjoll

Hi - I think you're being a little harsh on Bose.

LOL. Perhaps you are right. It's the Bose marketing department I have a real problem with, and people like departingsoon who have no idea what they are talking about parroting Bose's yammer. I also have a soft spot for small churches, who often have not a lot of money to waste, and regularly get shitty or inappropiate sound systems based on recommendations from inexperienced people. Of the probably 30 church installs I have been involved in, at least ten were started by removing the previous system and trying to get some of the church's money back for gear and labor from the "installers", and explaining why "Joe the parishioner who plays in that country band" or their local stereo store might not be the best choice to design a system.

Originally Posted by arjoll

I've heard the columns, and they're effective for speech. I suggested them in this thread because of the environment.

See, based on my experience, quality of the product aside, there is no place in that room to effectively use those boxes. It's just the wrong place for a line product, due to it's size and characteristics. After designing and installing many systems, I feel pretty confident in saying that. A line box doesn't belong there.

Those things like the 3db vs. 6 db loss, and the vertical control, those benefits of line technology, they depend on the length of the array. It's just the physics of the thing. The shorter the array, the higher the frequency at which they can occur. Bose recommends two stacked vertically to achieve those characteristics down to 200hz. With one, the speaker acts as a coherent line source only down to 2K. Below 2K, it is just like any other speaker in terms of pattern control and SPL dropoff. All the line benefits are gone. This also means at 25 feet, everything below 2K is about -10db from everything above 2K, and it gets worse the farther you go. Not pleasant to hear at all.

Two stacked means a 7.5 foot stack of speakers. To achieve control across the full range of the box, more than two high are needed.

That aside, even if one box had full control across it's range, it still is the wrong choice. There is no place to put it to use it's pattern effectively without big problems.

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by boingoman

See, based on my experience, quality of the product aside, there is no place in that room to effectively use those boxes. It's just the wrong place for a line product, due to it's size and characteristics. After designing and installing many systems, I feel pretty confident in saying that. A line box doesn't belong there.

That's a fair call. That beam is a problem, and another reason why auditioning them in the environment is important. And you're correct on the pricing of Bose; in a lot of cases the budget is as important a place to start as any and I don't think I've seen cheap Bose yet

Anyway, looking back through this thread KaptnKrunch was looking for a solution by early May, so I'm guessing that whatever was going to happen has happened. Would be interested to hear how things went.

[jpw23]

Originally Posted by KaptnKrunch

Hi! This is my first post here! (handshake)
Ok. Here is my situation. I have a $3000 budget for a PA System. The PA System is for a small Church, about 50 x 35 with a stage at one end. Right now we have 2 Peavey mains and a peavey mixer and amp combo.
What we would like to do:

-Two speakers in the front to replace the Peaveys.
-Two speakers in the middle of the building.
-Two speakers at the back.

We want to do this because, with our current system, the output is really loud on the front row, but not loud enough on the back row. The first thing I thought about was small Bose speakers with a sub. Cool. Also expensive. I can't really find any model of Bose speakers that are what I'm looking for. Not really loudspeakers, because that would be overkill. Just some small speakers around 100 watts each max. I might not even need that much, since there are so many speakers.


Ok. Long winded, aren't I? LOL

I KNOW that we want the Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro mixer, and 4 cordless mics. (We are also moving the Board to the back of the house, thus the need for the cordless mics.)
This puts us back about $1500, leaving only $1500 more for the speakers.

NOW. Monitors. We want to get small speakers on the stage for monitors too, but that can wait. We can work with what we have on the monitors until we get more cash. (Use the old head to power the stage monitors.)


So we have 1500 dollars for speakers. at least 6 of them, and a sub would be nice, but optional.


Let the brainstorming begin!

-How much power do I need for a room this size?
-Will feedback be a bigger problem in a multispeaker environment?

Crazy Idea.... Would a 7.1 channel home theater system carry the building, or is this just crazy? I want real answers on this one though. Don't just tell me it won't work without an explanation.

-Can this be done?
-Not enough money?
-...Any ways I can save money?(More money money for outboard gear!!! LOL)



I'm really interested in the home theater idea though. Complete system with a lot of power. Pretty reasonable price too.


Think out of the box? What box? There is no box in my world.

I install pa systems in churches all the time......my speaker of choice is the soundtech bt8 for the front and bt5's for the sides and the back.......they sound great, cheap, and are just about bulletproof!

[Rennikcks]

I have a set of the Bose speakers talked about in one of the earlier posts.
I have 2ea of the Bose Panaray MA12 for sale pretty much new units (demo units a couple of times) $395 ea. I also have 2 of the Panaray MB4 modular Bass units in stock (new) for $335 ea. These items have been in our warehouse a while that is why they are marked down so much. These are great sounding units which cover a wide area for such a narrow speaker. If you need any further information contact me at shipping@missionelectronics.com or check out our website www.missionelectronics.com