observation on what analog means to most recording school students

[freak1c]

Just an observation on the sad state of attitudes towards analog from the kiddies at school.
I would say that 99% of the kiddies at school could'nt care less about analog or tape. Their generation is pretty much born with computers attached to their neurotic little brains, and that's all they care about. Spending a ton of cash and time going to school and learning SSL's, Neve's, Studers, etc. with the intention of opening a home pro tools studio makes no sense to me (like learning rocket science in order to fly a kite), the word overkill, and waste of money comes to mind. But I guess they gotta spend their parents money somehow.
In any case perhaps this is one reason modern rock sucks so bad. And if these school grads are the next generation of engineers we better get used to it.

[birdie3]

Interesting point. This is certainly a classic debate (see: digital vs. analog). I still think that it's actually kind of good that analog has remained somewhat of a thing of the past because it's what separates those from the ones who are "in the know" of the ways of the purists and purveyors of fine audio production. It's almost like analog is something that must be discovered and that makes it all the more interesting.

[freak1c]

I'm not into the digital vs. analog trip, i think pro tools is very good at what it's good for (hard drive recording and editing), and analogs good at what it's good for.
The thing that bugs me is the general attitude towards analog, and the lack of appreciation or concern for sound in general, even harmonic distortion, natural tape saturation and compression, analog summing amps,transformers, etc. that analog gives, and only being concerned about ease of use and quickness that digital provides. Most of the students at school would probably like to piss on the SSL and take an axe to the studer. It's a t.v. dinner generation, they want it easy and they want it now. Analog dont get much respect these days. And lack of dynamic range is here to stay as well.
But what do you expect from people who want to be producers the first day of school, or just want to get in a door in order to sell their "beats".
Luckily a lot of em go into film post, or the music business end of it(of course). I'm sorry but if ya can't even make yer own beats for the synthetic step time induced midi music ya make, or feel the need to go to tons of schooling on analog gear in order to record rap, wich ya can do with an sm-57 and pro tools, sequencer and drum machine, well you'd be better off just buying a book and an m-box and saving yer money for crack.

[up-fiddler]

Left Ear What Happens Here Counts! Right Ear

[Beck]

It’s really kinda funny from my perspective. Analog isn’t even “old technology” unless you’re <18. Analog itself covers such a great span of time, and the technology improved so much from the beginning until now that you can’t even group analog into one little category. For example, the latest generation of Tascam open reel multitracks were still being produced through 1998 and could still be had new in box beyond 2000 -- that's not hardly vintage. Otari and Tascam still produce half-track machines.

For people like me it’s just a way of recording. I don’t see myself as part of an historical preservation society or anything like that. Analog is just the way it’s done, and I will see it that way until digital advances well beyond where it is now. Compared to analog digital is still in an experimental stage. The current “digital vs digital” debate bears this out. Digital has been like Darwin’s evolution, hoping for some future evidence to prove the theory. The next big breakthrough is always just around the corner.

Digital became the rage shortly after I began recording. It was “The Thing” in my day. Everyone went rushing over the digital edge like a bunch of lemmings. Manufacturers were tripping all over themselves to find ways to put the word digital into their products. After years of hearing the praises of “CD quality” 16-bit, 20-bit, 24-bit, 48k, 96k, 400 zillion times over sampling etc, we are now being wooed by brochures that tell us the new digital is getting closer and closer to “analog quality.” What?

The digital revolution is more a lesson in marketing than anything else.

Don’t get me wrong – digital recording technology is usable, but I would never use it alone without analog tape somewhere in the process. Naked digital is an assault on the human ear. However, if used judiciously in a support role behind analog it can extend your capabilities.

Keep in mind that my opinion is based on the premise that you have something musical to record in the first place. Much of what is out there today is nothing more than mental illness set to some semblance of a beat. In that case it doesn’t matter what you record to at all. But that’s a separate issue for another thread.

-Tim

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Much of what is out there today is nothing more than today is nothing mental illness set to some semblance of a beat

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!....

Bipolar rock.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!....

Bipolar rock.

Eh, I was thinking of rap... but yeah, that too.

I remember back in 87 I was in Philadelphia for a few days. I went out for a walk down town one night and passed one psychotic strung-out derelict after another talking to themselves and shouting 4-letter words mixed with other incoherent ramblings.

I could never have imagined in my wildest dreams that someday some record company exec would hand them all microphones and a drum machines.

[bennychico11]

i don't know...i think i disagree with you freak1c. i guess i'm considered part of the computer generation of kids here and a Pro Tools freak as well. but i think that it's not that the young students don't respect or understand what analog can offer. but the ease of use of a DAW combined with how many things you can do to manipulate your audio exactly the way you want it...is what attracts people. not to mention the cost of a Pro Tools system is a hell of a lot cheaper than an SSL. I doubt if you ask anyone if they'd want an SSL or Pro Tools that they'd choose Pro Tools instead. But people just can't afford them...especially young students.
I do almost all my work inside the box...but I still drool everytime i see a nice ass 9000J console or tube gear. i'd friggin' cut off both my arms and use a chopstick in my mouth to mix all my songs if i could have an SSL at home. but I ain't seein' it happen anytime soon (and one of them being because of those damn school loans).

but i also wouldn't blame just the students or the schools for not teaching and instilling in the studentes the joys of analog. you kind of have to blame the consumer for not knowing what good quality music sounds like. standards have dropped among EVERYONE (hence the creation of the MP3).

[goldtopchas]

Ok...might as well add my "digital" gripe to the mix....The thing I think that bothers me most about digital is the fact that you can take a chunk of otherwise unacceptable playing and slice it, dice it, tune it, loop it, and polish it like a new apple. .............what ever happened to just being able to play well???? And the over-homogenized, boring results are all over the radio for every kid to want to emulate. Some of these bands sound rediculously bad when playing live.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by Cowardly_little_pussy_who_leaves_negative_rep_instead _of_replying_to_the_thread

what a load of drivel

Explain yourself. Offer some reason for your statement that can enlighten us. You can even set up a bogus account and post if you want – I don’t care. Just keep the discussion here where it belongs for all to see and consider.

And don't be a cowardly little backstabber. It’s not good for you. The more you do things like that the harder it will be to be freed from your demons and grow into an emotionally whole person.

-Tim

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Some of these bands sound rediculously bad when playing live.

You're too kind.

Heres my take as a 40 yearr musician.
There is a reason these bands sound terrible LIVE. There are no musicians in them, thats why. Only wanna be's. What MOST of these morons lack is musicianship. The producers know it, the lable knows it, and the engineers know it but the fucking audience for these bands wouldn't know a real musician if they fucking heard one. If it wasn't for digital, they'd all be fucking plumbers. THATS what I dispise about the REAL meaning of digital today....auto tune, cut and paste, AND musical LIES!! All fucking lies. If these so called "musicians" had to make a living playing 5 hours a night, six nights a week, they'ed be shit fucking out of luck. Lets see if ANY of them are playing music in 5 years. I bet most of them don't know more than 3 chord qualities. Give them a half diminished and they'd look at you like you were from outer fucking space. LONG LIVE ANALOG. LONG LIVE MUSICAL TRUTH!!
fitZ

[Muckelroy]

I often feel alienated, because of my love for analog. I'm a student here @ the sound recording tech. program at TSU, and I hardly try to brag about my love for analog. I seldom try to raise hell about it. It's just that the issue occasionally comes up, and I just can't help but tell them how much I love the sound of analog tape. As any fool would know, YES it's a hassle. YES it's uneconomical. YES it's "outdated." But not if you can make gold records w/ it.

It's the sound that matters to me. So there, that's my story. I'm surrounded by pro-tools lovers, in a studio that has stowed away their 2" MCI, and refuses to repair it. They're even debating as to whether the new console in the main room will be a digital or an analog console................ouch. that hurts my ears.

-callie-

[Beck]

Originally Posted by Muckelroy

I often feel alienated, because of my love for analog. I'm a student here @ the sound recording tech. program at TSU, and I hardly try to brag about my love for analog. I seldom try to raise hell about it. It's just that the issue occasionally comes up, and I just can't help but tell them how much I love the sound of analog tape. As any fool would know, YES it's a hassle. YES it's uneconomical. YES it's "outdated." But not if you can make gold records w/ it.

It's the sound that matters to me. So there, that's my story. I'm surrounded by pro-tools lovers, in a studio that has stowed away their 2" MCI, and refuses to repair it. They're even debating as to whether the new console in the main room will be a digital or an analog console................ouch. that hurts my ears.

-callie-

And they're trying to teach you? Get your money back

[Muckelroy]

Naw, it's actually a GREAT program. It's one of the few places where you can get a college DEGREE in that field. I know that there's a 99% chance that if/when I ever get hired in the recording field, I will need to know my stuff in the digital realm, whether it be Pro-tools, Radar, DAW's, Sonar, or 2-track editing like Acid, or Sound Forge. It's a terrific program for mastering these tools.

But, the most emphasis is placed on the pre-tape signal (I use the term "tape" looseley) cuz, it doesn't matter what medium you're recording on if the source, the source placement, micing techniques, and pre-tape equipment is off whack.

I've found that you can make a GREAT analog recording, or you can make a GREAT digital recording. It all depends on what your forte is. As long as either one is DONE RIGHT, you're good to go. 96K 24 bit digital recordings sound VERY warm and full, especially on stand-alone hard-disk recorders like Radar, or the Alesis HD-24, you name it, in which no background computer programs are hogging up the memory and processor.

Since I'm obviously not going to get formal training on analog tape machine operation, I'm learning that on my own. I'm about 2/3 away from getting a 16 track home studio setup going -- recently picked up a Fostex B-16 1/2" 16 track deck, and i'm lovin' it. Gonna calibrate it as soon as I get a chance, and start rollin' on all reels asap.

There are some other students in my class who agree on my "analog ravings". They definateley hear the ART element, and the more musical characteristics of analog. Some of these people would get a tape machine if they had the money -- I was fortunate enough to find one for extremely cheap, and I'm crazy enough to buy it and use it

I know of one guy who's a junior, who has a 2" 16 track 3M. Not sure if he still has it, or if he's ever used it.......I should ask him sometime.

So, I'm not ALONE. just crazy.

-callie-

[jpmorris]

For what it's worth, I got into analogue recording quite recently. The turning point for me was a spectacular rant in 'Computer Shopper' sometime around early 2003.
Damn, I wish I'd kept that article.

The author was trying to multitrack on a PC, but became more and more angry over the latency issues and general sloppiness of the systems he was trying to use. His solution was to buy what I now realise is a late-model TSR-8 with Dolby-S. It seemed like a fantastic idea (I still remember drooling at the Fostex model 80s in Tottenham Court Road around 1989).

But even before that I had already decided I wanted to at least mix down to analogue reel-to-reel, and have working a system to archive digital recordings onto.
I had several reasons for that, too. I've always had a soft-spot for 'trailing-edge' technologies. But this is also important:

http://www.eff.org/endangered/list.php#converters
..because it is the single most likely way of turning the clock back to the 70s..If this happens, there won't BE any digital recorders. We can just hope that analogue doesn't die first...

[Beck]

Originally Posted by Muckelroy

I've found that you can make a GREAT analog recording, or you can make a GREAT digital recording. It all depends on what your forte is. As long as either one is DONE RIGHT, you're good to go. 96K 24 bit digital recordings sound VERY warm and full, especially on stand-alone hard-disk recorders like Radar, or the Alesis HD-24, you name it, in which no background computer programs are hogging up the memory and processor.

Yep, I'm with you on that ... all except the part about 96/24 being warm and full.

Seriously though, you're right about the difference it makes between knowing how to optimize whatever you have. Most of the cries for help on these forums are related to people not understanding the fundamentals, which apply equally to digital and analog.

Who knows what will be the dominant technology a few years from now. As long as you come away with a grasp of the things that won’t change you’ll be fine. The physics of sound and the human ear won’t change.

Not everyone can do this recording stuff. It’s not like riding a bike or something. I’ll go out on a limb here and say that more people can master an instrument – guitar, piano, violin, whatever, than can become capable engineer/producers.

The whole home recording marketing thing would have us believe that all we need is just one more little device. The reality is that the best can do the most with the least. So anyway, you’re doing the smart thing by pursuing knowledge.

-Tim

[audioholic]

As grad of an Audio Production program in Boston I feel that I must throw in my two cents. Not all schools are pushing the protools digital land as much as you'd think. It was my experience that the greatest teachers I had never even used protools over their long carreers. Maybe my school was a diamond in the rough. We didn't even touch protools until my Junior year when we started our non-linear recording class. We started our studies on a Trident/Oram series 80 5.1 console and an Otari 2 inch machine. We learned proper use, calibration, slicing and dicing of tape, striping time code, all the needed analog knowledge first. Then we moved up to an SSL 6000G+ which you could use with a protools mix system or analog tape. It was always your choice. I also believe it depends on where you want to go with your studies. I personaly had a tascam 38 1/2 inch 8-track and a scully 1/4 inch 2-track before I even entered this school so I was obviously biased in my core studies. I will agree that when these "beat makers" get to these schools and find out about protools they spend every waking hour with their samplers, drum machines, keyboards etc. but if they don't buckle down and learn about analog they'll never find a job in a pro house. It's not a bad thing, different musical genres have different production needs and Hip-hop is more productivly written/recorded on a protools system.
I digress, this thread is not about analog vs digital and I almost whent there along with a lot of you. The most pressing question is whether or not these students including me have the knowledge and the will to use Analog in the future when we get out in the field. I for one know that my school does not let one person graduate without extensive knowledge of the analog domain. This includes everything encompassing the subject. Whether or not we use it is another question all together. It all depends on where you go. I for one know of no fully pro studios that don't have an analog deck in them. So they must be getting used. I think at this time a lot of people are combining the two medias for the best results of both worlds.
Believe me there still are some young analog freaks out there and we wont let it die. You can trust me on that. A couple of friends of mine from school made homemade buttons that simply stated "back to Analog" on them we wore them everyday. I'll pull mine out again and pinn it on my shirt in some hope that it will help. I'll let you know when they go on sale....HA haha

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

We didn't even touch protools until my Junior year when we started our non-linear recording class.

Junior YEAR???? How long are these courses? I wasn't aware that recording schools were more than a year at best. In that case, just how "much" does one PAY to learn a skill like this? And what can you expect in yearly income to warrant this outgo. And finally, please clue me in, how does one earn an income while spending years at a recording school, not to mention paying for it in the first place. Or is it like Billy Holiday sings...

[freak1c]

Um.....I'll have to remember not to post after a bad day, don't get me wrong I"m not anti pro tools at all, and that bit about rap was unfair, and the ratio of kids at school was overexagerated, I'd say 70% don't give a crap about the death of analog (should that happen,I doubt it). Anyway, who cares?
sorry.

[themaddog]

I'm 22, obviously part of that "computer generation," and use analog. I was won over, after starting out with some basic digital stuff, because of the real controls and knobs, ease of use, and of course the sound quality. I'm about to graduate from college, nothing related to recording, although when I started my collegiate career I really wanted to do recording. I stopped because the two schools I attended had little to nothing to offer (digital or analog), but I never lost interest of course.

Anyways, I did seriously look into going to school for recording, and since I live in Boston, I looked at Berklee and the New England Institute for the Arts. Berklee has nothing that anyone here would be, or should be, interested in, and although the New England Institute has a couple of two inch machines, you have to get into really specialized classes before they even let you near 'em. I thought about pursuing another bachelor's degree from there, more than anything because they offer a class that deals with analog machine maintenance that teaches how to calibrate tape machines and such, but... not worth the money, and the only way to take it would be to become a full time student, no continuing ed just for that class or anything.

At least they still teach some analog stuff somewhere, I guess, but like anything it costs big bucks!

-MD

[Beck]

Originally Posted by freak1c

that bit about rap was unfair.

No, you had that right. Maybe you shouldn't post after a good day either, because now you're being too gracious.

[ellery]

I will admit i'm young {17} but one of the people i work with is a old analog guy. Eg worked in music before i was born. but one of the peace's of advice he has given me is to learn analog. Well i did not see the point untill i did my first mix. Started in protools and now i'm using a 24 track. Big difference in range. Tape just has a sound to it. that i like and that i find most other people like too.

[Beck]

I'm surprised at the large number of formal training programs out there right now, not to mention all the recording 101 community college classes that have been around since I can remember. Used to be sound recording was just a segment of a Mass-Com degree maybe EE as well.

http://www.prosoundnews.com/proaudio/education.shtml

[bigwillz24]

Well I guess I'll say it, I don't agree with some of your statements...

I'm taking a 2 year program at HCC and we have to learn the "best of both worlds"

In one studio theres an SSL in another studio in the same building theres a Protools setup.

I'd say about 80 to 100% of the students that are there for audio engineering are there because of the SSL board not Protools (we could stay at home for that).

I'll also say that 50 to 60% of the students including myself favor rap/hip-hop music however, that is not the only genre of music we learn how to mix & record.

I pay my own way through school & have not depended on my parents in years.

I have my own little setup at home and its digital because I can't afford an SSL, I'd be surprised If I could afford to buy & maintain a 2" tape machine.

The intention of most students is not to open a home studio (most of us already have one) it is to have a career in something they love to do not just a hobby.

I don't know about anywhere else but that piece of paper you get when you graduate opens alot of doors at least in Houston.

Especially since most of our teachers are in the business (it's like they teach there just to weed out who really wants to make a career out of it then offer them a job after you graduate)

[Mo-Kay]

First I wanna say...what's with knocking rap so quickly..on of the first few posts...no need for that.

Ok on topic: I'm 22 years old and about to start an arts school 4 year-course Composition & Music Production.

I got my first computer at the age of 7... I grew up with computers and yet...
For making music...it's becoming less and less appealing to me.
For the past years I have been basically making music with a laptop and a midi keyboard. But besides that, there are also 5 crates of records in my room.

A lot of kids in my school are crazy about computers and keep on telling themselves and others how great it is that you can do everything within the computer...

But to me... doing everything digitally/within the computer no soul...

I've just bought an analog '89 studiomaster console off of somebody, want more hardware, and among the stuff that I want...is a lot of analog.

Don't get me wrong, my new 3 ghz xxxGB 192khz/24bit computer is also on it's way....
I love the possibilities (gigasampling, analogue modelling of vintage gear) and the overview, especially for recording, since what I do (yes, hip-hop) is very vocal-heavy.

But I wanna touch something too! I wanna feel something and it's not the feeling of being at a damn office staring at a monitor all damn day clicking a mouse.

I wanna make music, not be a computer-operator...
Revolutional hi-tech stuff is all really nice... but people shouldn't forget that in the end... it should be be all about the music...