can anyone explain how to get the highest possible potential volume?

[grn]

I'd like to know what techniques you use on drums, guitars, guitar amps, bass guitars, and vocals as far as setting them up in the room. I'd also like to know how you set up the microphones and what levels you set them at when recording. I use an Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96 and it says when recording, the levels should "be in the yellow"... slightly above green and definitely not peaking/distorted. It's all relative, I know. Anyway, what do you do to get the highest potential volume? What do you do when mixing to get highest potential volume? Then what do you use to compress/limit the hell out of it?

I'd rather get a great recording without compress/limiting... and by great, I mean bad, because I mean loud.

[chessrock]

You have to start getting the idea of volume out of your head as being an abolute. Perceived volume is always a relative thing. I mean anyone can make something loud. Like, you've seen a volume knob and you know what it does if you turn it clockwise, right? ? ? And you know that if you turn it too far and it sounds bad, you need to back off and turn it back to the left.

Alright, good ... glad we got that one out of the way.

Now on to loudness and perceived volume ... Keep in mind that you're getting in to some very broad concepts regarding economies of sound. I know that sounds like a stretch, so bear with me, but if you're economic and efficient about the sounds you're working with, then you'll have a louder-sounding finished product in the end. That's really the only way I know how to accurately describe it. And to get any further in to this is going to require far too much detail and explanation than anyone here will have time to post, so I would highly, highly suggest you start reading books -- like the Bob Katz book that everyone seems to like so much. What I'm trying to say is that this one might take a little more academics / book smarts. It's part art, part philosophy, but even more science than anything else.

As far as specific suggestions, the single biggest thing that comes to mind is arrangement. If you clutter your production and try to create a wall of sound with a million tracks, you may wind up with just the opposite effect and be left with a weaker-sounding production.

Another thing that comes to mind is really simple ... and that is to make sure you have plenty of midrange energy; guitars, vocals, piano, etc. Our ears are most sensitive to frequencies that occupy the range between 1K to 4k or so, so make sure your arrangements have plenty of that stuff "budgeted" if you want a loud-sounding mix.

Lastly, if you want something to sound loud ... then don't try to play or sing "louder." That's the last thing you want to do. For example: the bassist who picks really hard during "loud" parts of the song, or the guitarist who strums extra hard, or the vocalist who tightens his vocal chords and the drummer who smashes the daylights out of his loud cymbals.

Instead, try playing more deliberately and with controlled intensity. Think of it like this: What do you really hear when a bassist plays "louder?" I know what I hear ... a bunch of "PINK!" "TING" "POP!" crap. Pure muddled crap, basically. Actually sounds a lot weaker than when he was playing 'quieter.' Now apply the same principle to the 6-string. Does picking extra hard really make the chords sound more powerful? Or does it just make them sound choppier and less distinct? When the drummer hits the cymbals with great force ... does it really help matters, or does it just make the snare and toms sound much less powerful due to all the crazy cymbal bleed, etc ?

That's about all I can think of for the time-being. Good luck on your quest for loudness. I'm sure you're going to conquer the world with your sheer, unabashed raw volume in no time.

[boomtap]

Is is just me, or is Jimmy Eat World "Bleed American" the loudest master I have ever heard. It peaks my equipment.?!

[JazzMang]

Originally Posted by boomtap

Is is just me, or is Jimmy Eat World "Bleed American" the loudest master I have ever heard. It peaks my equipment.?!

Goo Goo Dolls: Big Machine.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by grn

Can anyone explain how to get the highest possible potential volume?

Read my SIG.....

[JazzMang]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Read my SIG.....

This is true.

grn, remember, crap that has been 'compressed to hell' is ultimately just louder, more obnoxious crap. Compression isnt done for the hell of it or to make the waveform look cooler, its done as a musical effect... helping to control dynamics in places where it may be a little 'unmusical'.

knowing how to use a compressor musically is the key, as long as you are sure that something needs compression. I wouldnt personally compress the entire mix, if thats what you're getting at, because it kills the natural dynamics of the music itself... plus it sounds like ass.

[lpdeluxe]

If EVERYTHING is loud, nothing is loud. If you want an element to sound loud, it has to have other elements that don't sound loud to provide a contrast.

That's if you REALLY REALLY REALLY need it to be loud, and nobody does.

[grn]

well if I can keep the volume on a typical stereo system at level 6 for example and I don't have to adjust for any songs coming out from major record labels and then when I hear my own stuff and I have to adjust it to level 10... and then I get slight hiss from the stereo system, not from the song itself... it just is a little irritating.

anyway, I'm rambling, and the point is I would like to get a very high potential/relative volume without having to compress/limit that much at all.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by grn

anyway, I'm rambling, and the point is I would like to get a very high potential/relative volume without having to compress/limit that much at all.

That isn't possible -- limiting is the only reason commercial CDs are as loud as they are, there's no other way to acheive it!

[Massive Master]

But there are (relatively) good and bad ways to go about it...

Of course, there's no way to tell which is which until it's being played...

[noodles2k5]

I've always wondered that as well. So how can you use limiting to boost the perceived volume? And how can you avoid having a "wimpy loud sound"?

[LRosario]

You see,

the answer to the question you are asking comes from a number of little things put together to make a big product. Getting good volume is a gradual process in recording.


It starts at the mics you use up until the final cut hits the CD for burning. The lower you can get your noisefloors, the higher dynamic range you can achieve. Good gear means more clairty for you.

Mastering plays a big part in this. It's not my area of expertise, so I can't surgical on details, but Master Engineers have the gear that will push your recording as far as it can go.


For example, TC Electronic sells the System 6000 which, in short, is like the golden thong for any studio. Increasing volume, clarity, tone...plus the especially important feature, it guards against serious ear fatigue.

In short, it means you can take just about any recording, blast the shit out of it and not cause your ears to break a sweat. Replay value goes up, your customers are happy and undeaf...just about everyone wins.

But just like anything, this is all within reason, of course.

[noodles2k5]

I was hoping that wasn't the answer. I guess there's no way to do it yourself in a home studio then (without spending thousands on that kind of equipment)?

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by noodles2k5

I was hoping that wasn't the answer. I guess there's no way to do it yourself in a home studio then (without spending thousands on that kind of equipment)?

If you just want "loud," any limiter will do. A freebie that I use is the Classic Master Limiter by Kjaerhus. It is the best free limiter I've found. Sure, it doesn't sound as good as the expensive stuff, but it will make things louder. After you ruin a few mixes with it, you'll learn to back off some.

[Lo-Fi Mike]

Originally Posted by grn

... and then I get slight hiss from the stereo system, not from the song itself... it just is a little irritating.

i'm not att all as experianced as others on the board, but i had the same problem with the hiss, and i solved it using WAVES L2 ULTRAMAXIMIZER plugin. it made my final mix louder and stronger with out clipping or distorting.

hope this helps

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by scrubs

...Sure, it doesn't sound as good as the expensive stuff, but it will make things louder. After you ruin a few mixes with it, you'll learn to back off some.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by scrubs

After you ruin a few mixes with it, you'll learn to back off some.

ROFLMAO!!!!!

[giraffe]

it's kinda a bummer, all this headroom and i feel like i dont get to use it at the end of the day

[fraserhutch]

And to think I thought that all you had to do was turn the volume knob to 11...

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by giraffe

it's kinda a bummer, all this headroom and i feel like i dont get to use it at the end of the day

Amen, bruthah. The better the technology gets, the more people want to ruin it with an L2.

[acorec]

Originally Posted by grn

I'd like to know what techniques you use on drums, guitars, guitar amps, bass guitars, and vocals as far as setting them up in the room. I'd also like to know how you set up the microphones and what levels you set them at when recording. I use an Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96 and it says when recording, the levels should "be in the yellow"... slightly above green and definitely not peaking/distorted. It's all relative, I know. Anyway, what do you do to get the highest potential volume? What do you do when mixing to get highest potential volume? Then what do you use to compress/limit the hell out of it?

I'd rather get a great recording without compress/limiting... and by great, I mean bad, because I mean loud.

The idea of getting the highest volume per track goes back to analog tape and 16 bit recording. Without getting too far into it, 24 bit recording allows much more volume data than 16 bit recording. You don't have to record "hot" at all. With analog tape,the idea is to push the noise floor down by recording at 0 or above without audable distortion. The 16 bit data scheme had to be recorded hot because of the available bits that set the volume of the data. The 24 it system has an additional 8 bits of data that specifically relates to the volume of the recorded content.

Now, in a mix, it is *relative* volume that you are concerned with. Most all recordings are vastly out of proportion if you think about it. When was the last time you could hear an acoustic guitar at the same volume as a drum kit or distorted guitar? Multitrack recording is by definition out of balance in the extreme. The loudness you might be concerned with is the final mix to a CD. That is the current craze and has more to do with mastering than anything else. What kills this aspect of mixing to CD at a pro volume is that you have transients that send you into the "red". In the digital world, going into the "red" is not like analog at all. The effect is serious distortion so bad that it will scare you. Mastering is just a way of being able to hear the content and adjusting out any transients in the mix. Then the level can be run to the top with no distortion. Recording each track at the high end of the volume scale is not a great method of achieving a good mix as you run the risk of killing the summing bus. The real solution is to get a balanced mix and mastering the result.

[acorec]

[QUOTE=chessrock]
"...Lastly, if you want something to sound loud ... then don't try to play or sing "louder." That's the last thing you want to do. For example: the bassist who picks really hard during "loud" parts of the song, or the guitarist who strums extra hard, or the vocalist who tightens his vocal chords and the drummer who smashes the daylights out of his loud cymbals.

Instead, try playing more deliberately and with controlled intensity. Think of it like this: What do you really hear when a bassist plays "louder?" I know what I hear ... a bunch of "PINK!" "TING" "POP!" crap. Pure muddled crap, basically. Actually sounds a lot weaker than when he was playing 'quieter.'...."

I forgot this, but Chessrock hit the nail on the head. When I record the bass as an example, I put the volume way up and actually play *lighter*. The loudness and smoothness comes from the string and not the "attack". The best bass players play in a very controlled manner. I also use a limiter just in case I play a little too hard. You must pay attention to playing very lightly and it takes alot of practice. Guitar is the same way. Attacking the instument just introduces sounds that take away what you are trying to record in the first place. Smashing on these insruments actually does not allow the sound to "bloom".

[FALKEN]

from my experience, I would have to disagree about not worrying about recording levels hot. Any volume increase after the sound has been put on hard disk lowers your sonic quality by bringing lower bit distortion into the higher bits. at least that is what I hear. you will get a much better final product by recording your tracks as loud as possible without clipping and then lowering the volume to the appropriate level in mixing. I try to avoid any increase in volume digitally. Especially if in 16 bit. any digital volume increase will lower you to say, 14 bits, depending on how much increase.

I would have to agree on the way it is played and dynamics though.

Jimi used to use that trick. The first track on his album would be some quiet, noisy, ambient thing. then, track 2 would come in, and sound loud as shit, when actually, compared to say tracks 3 and 4, it is not that loud at all. it is all in the contrast.

But the original question is on final CD mix volume at home. Compress on the way in. Compress the vocals, the bass drum and snare drum (gently), compress anything panned center. leave the guitars and overheads un-compressed. compression will stop the transients, therefore allowing you to get a louder mix without clipping. compressing on the way in will allow you to do it without applying digital makeup gain.

if you disagree with any of this, that is fine. I am not an engineer and this is only what I have learned through my own experience, trying to acheive the same goal myself.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

if you disagree with any of this, that is fine. I am not an engineer and this is only what I have learned through my own experience, trying to acheive the same goal myself.

I definitely disagree with most of it.... there are some valid point with respect to 16-bit digital, but with high-quality 24-bit converters, getting "hot" levels simply doesn't matter AT ALL. Period.

[FALKEN]

bruce.

how many bits would you calculate are lost by a 10db increase? or lets call it a 12 db increase to make the math easier.


just occured to me: every bit = 6db ?