setup advice

[superstupid]

I was originally planning to get an 8 track open reel, then go into a Pro Tools setup to add vocals and leads, etc. Then I thought that for what I'd pay to do that, I could get a 2 track deck, a couple good rack FX, and other things.

Would it be OK to record 8 channels of rhythm tracks on the 8 track, mix down to 2 track, then put it back on the 8 track, or would I be doing too much transferring?

Here's the setup I'm thinking:

8 track: Otari Mx5050, TASCAM TSR-8 ,or 38 w/dbx
2 track: Not sure here.

Mixer: Mackie 1604 VLZ, Tascam M series, or Allen & Heath Mixwizard. Would like to be able to do 8 channels simultaneously. 3 band EQ w/ Mid sweep; and 2 effect sends would be nice (reverb and compression)

Rack:

JoeMeek preamp/compressor
M-Audio DMP3
Lexicon reverb
Graphic EQ (? not sure what brand)
Small tube mic pre

Any reccomendations on this setup?

[BRDTS]

......Would it be OK to record 8 channels of rhythm tracks on the 8 track, mix down to 2 track, then put it back on the 8 track, or would I be doing too much transferring?......

I used to do this in the early days of the 70's with identical machines (two 80-8s, two 3340's etc). It saved one generation of noise/smear buildup.

But..there are multiple problems with the two "non-identical" machines you mention.

First ....the physical size of the tape on the 8trks you mention is half inch. In order to put your stereo tape back on the 8trk, it too would have to be half inch. Which narrows down what you can find as half inch two tracks are not exactly plentiful.

Second....even if you have an 8trk-half inch and a 2trk-half inch, the mixed signal on the two track tape reel (when put back on the 8trk machine) will most likely not line up perfectly...ie: your two tracks are now "sort-of" placed between two..or..three..or even four lengths of head gap on the 8trk. Which means the 2track signal will "sort-of" spill out multiple tracks of the 8trk with no one track probably getting the full signal from the full track width.

At first thought, one might try to mathematically figure out how/if this would happen by erroneously dividing tape width by track number to figure out where these two tracks would land. But that won't work because every make/model of machine has a different scheme for width of guard bands around the tracks. So..the likely scenario is that your two tracks won't land on two tracks when the reel is placed on the 8trk machine...and whatever you hear, it probably won't be full frequency because of the skew.

I've stuck full 85-16 reels (1" 16 trk) on the Msr24 here to see how things end up. It was basically a mess. Muffled tracks, no logic to which of the 24 tracks meters sound was coming from...some meters/tracks silent, other tracks/meters getting a little bit of read. Stuff like that.

I also (out of curiosity a few years ago) stuck a full tsr8 half inch tape on an 85-16 and ran it on the one inch transport (the capstan did a very good job of holding the smaller tape in place while I dumped the excess to the floor rather than to the right side reel) to see where the tracks read on the 16trk meters. In theory, one might think the eight tracks of the half inch tape would read on 8 meters of the 16 trk one inch. But they didn't. I only got a read on a few of the eight tracks, spread across random meters on the 16 trk. Plus the sound was muffled on several of the tracks...indicating they weren't landing exactly in the head gaps.

I think that's basically the same scenario you'd have with the scenario you're talking about...and that's even IF you found a half inch 2 track. I think you have a better idea with getting an 8track, filling the tracks and then dumping to ProTools.

I used to do something like that in the early days..and still periodically do a similar procedure nowadays with Nuendo.

The advantage of an 8 track machine in your situation is that you can start by making a few guide tracks and record them to 2 (stereo) of your eight tracks..this way you don't really ever have to worry about investing in sync equipment.

Just dub 6 tracks on your 8trk (listening to your two ref stereo trks)..then dump to protools. Erase the six tracks (or slap on a fresh reel containg another set of those two ref stereo guide tracks)...overdub 6 trks again...dump to Protools again. etc etc

You can then nudge all the random tracks into sync on Protools when you're completely done on the analog machine...using the same guide stereo tracks on Protools to get your sync reference point. In this setup, you don't need elaborate motor sync/wordclock or any of that stuff.

Now, in my case, everything is sync'd (all the multitracks by using multiple Midiizers. ats500's etc) and all controlled into multiple pcs with Motu Digital Timepiece. That system works flawlessly when I use it all at the same time (increasingly rarely) so I don't have to use guide tracks etc...but in the old days, the procedure I listed above worked well when I used to dump sync'd analog 85-16/msr24/tsr8 tracks into my first daw 10 years ago (Saw).

[snipeguy]

Originally Posted by superstupid

I was originally planning to get an 8 track open reel, then go into a Pro Tools setup to add vocals and leads, etc. Then I thought that for what I'd pay to do that, I could get a 2 track deck, a couple good rack FX, and other things.

Would it be OK to record 8 channels of rhythm tracks on the 8 track, mix down to 2 track, then put it back on the 8 track, or would I be doing too much transferring?

Here's the setup I'm thinking:

8 track: Otari Mx5050, TASCAM TSR-8 ,or 38 w/dbx
2 track: Not sure here.

I use an Otari 5050 8 track and have had pretty good luck with recording all 8 tracks and then transfering them to my blackface aDat. I then mix that down to 2 or 3 or whatever back on the Otari. I also go from all 4 tracks of my 3440 to the aDat or the Otari. Whatever I'm in the mood for. Then I would do a final set of overdubs and final mix.

If I had one, I'd do that final to a quality half track 1/4" deck. For the moment I'm doing the finals back to the aDat. I've also used a minidisc and cassette. I have a TEAC cassette deck that sounds surprisingly good.

It depends on what you want to do with the final product. If you are looking to put out a Juno Award Winning album, then maybe this isn't your answer. But if you're up for experimenting, having some fun and working on you're craft, go for it.

Your setup sounds fine to me but I didn't see anything about mikes. A couple of good mikes goes a long way.

[superstupid]

Originally Posted by BRDTS

......Would it be OK to record 8 channels of rhythm tracks on the 8 track, mix down to 2 track, then put it back on the 8 track, or would I be doing too much transferring?......

I used to do this in the early days of the 70's with identical machines (two 80-8s, two 3340's etc). It saved one generation of noise/smear buildup.

But..there are multiple problems with the two "non-identical" machines you mention.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

My plan is to fill up 8 tracks, mix it down to a 2 track machine, then playback the 2 track machine onto the 8 track as a stereo mix. I won't be switching tape reels between machines.

Record onto 8 track > mix to 2 tracks > record back to 8 track.

Basically its a fancy way of bouncing, but I would like to be able to have 8 live tracks.

[superstupid]

QUOTE=snipeguy]Your setup sounds fine to me but I didn't see anything about mikes. A couple of good mikes goes a long way.[/QUOTE]

Don't know what a Juno award is, but I want to be able to get a good recording and mix, send it to a mastering house, and have a CD that is good enough to sell on a commercial market, and be playable on the radio. I know that a lot of that rests in the mastering engineer's hands, so I ultimately want it to be professionally mastered. Pro Tools just doesn't have it.

As far as mics, we currently have:

2 SM57's
1 SM 58
1 Beta 57
1 ATM 25
(will probably get an Audix D6 soon)
Senn e609
2 MXL 603s
1 MXL V67

It's mostly a live setup, except for the v67. We may invest in one more condenser, not sure where to go on that, want something with a different flavor.

What we would do is for the rhythm tracks: D6 on kick, 57 on snare, 603 as overheads, (4 tracks on drums), a 57 and the v67 on the guitar, either the ATM25 or the 57 on the bass cab (need to pick up the mids and distortion), and one track of direct bass. Then mix that down, and dump it back into 8 tracks. Record leads the same way.

Then use the V67 or whatever condenser we have for vocals. I sing backup, I think my voice is kind of low, I think I have a Ramones-ish voice, and also some soft harmonies. Our singer is a baritone black soul voice.

[BRDTS]

...."I think you are misunderstanding me"...

Yeah, I didn't catch what you meant by "putting it back into the 8trk". As to your asking for an opinion...from my experience, it wouldn't be very satisfactory.

What you have is the original pure signal being recorded on the analog 8trk..capturing the analog you want. But then, the submix recording over to the two track adds a second generation of basically smear. Then playing it back into the 8 track to record the two tracks is a third pass of smear. To me, three passes of analog submixing definitely "changes" the sound and not in a good way. No matter how good the machines.

The other problem I would have is that once the submixes are passed over to the 8trk on that third pass, it's all over baby for "undoing" them. In the real old days when I submixed that way between a 3340 and a stereo Tandberg (before a 2nd 3340), there was always the problem of when I got so far into a song and decided an earlier submix wasn't what I wanted, it was too late. Very aggravating at the time. If you're pretty sure this is scratch stuff that there's absolutely no chance you'll ever want to remix once it's recorded and has all those submixes, yeah, it'll at least work technically.

You have unlimited redo/undo if you incorporate an analog multitrack with Protools. Plus, you control the type of recorded sound you get. That's the way I'd go.

[snipeguy]

Originally Posted by superstupid

Don't know what a Juno award is..........

Ha! What a hoser I can be. A Juno is the Canadian equivalent of a Grammy. That mike selection knocks the shit out of mine. I'd go with BRDTS and do the analog to ProTools route if you want to put out some product.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by superstupid

I think you are misunderstanding me.

My plan is to fill up 8 tracks, mix it down to a 2 track machine, then playback the 2 track machine onto the 8 track as a stereo mix. I won't be switching tape reels between machines.

Record onto 8 track > mix to 2 tracks > record back to 8 track.

Basically its a fancy way of bouncing, but I would like to be able to have 8 live tracks.

Yeah, you can do that. It would basically be equivalent to two internal bounces, but technically a little better due to the wider track width on the 2-track (if it's a good 2-track, preferably with noise reduction). Two bounces are max in my book though. Some people are fine with more.

Tascam 32-2, 22-2, Otari MX5050 -- all good.

[superstupid]

Well, the thing is, that I do not have a Pro Tools setup, and it seems like I'd be dropping some un-necessary cash on a Pro Tools setup.

What about just recording onto 6 channels, and then bouncing the old fashioned way?

It would probably be the only bounce.

[BRDTS]

Boy did I read your post wrong on about every point. I thought you already have Pro Tools.

If I'm ..finally ...undersanding the situation, you have none of the items you mentioned. I don't know if that also goes for the mixers/outboard stuff etc you listed.

If you have nothing, you can probably go analog and get a nice learning curve in by practicing with two analog machines. Especially if this is going to save you some money that you can use for other things you also want to get.

Only you can decide if multiple submix passes causes the sound to be objectionable compared to one analog pass dumped into a daw. That type of thing is a totally personal call.

That said..to me, multiple analog passes is not gonna sound very good. And worse...to me, if you end up with a great recorded piece that you love ....a piece that maybe developed from just fooling around....but just needs to be remixed or earlier parts removed....and that has a bunch of submixed parts that you can't "un-submix" ....you're gonna get real angry. Because you'll never be able to recreate it no matter how much you try to re-record it.

By the way, unless you eventually plan on buying Protools HD when you're ready for a daw, you might want to take a look at the other things that are out there. Particularly Nuendo.

[superstupid]

I have an Audiophile 2496, so I do have a decent 2 channel digital soundcard.

I just don't see putting the money into ProTools at this point, and am not convinced that it would really do that much for us, when we need that analog sound.

[superstupid]

Originally Posted by BRDTS

Boy did I read your post wrong on about every point. I thought you already have Pro Tools.

If I'm ..finally ...undersanding the situation, you have none of the items you mentioned. I don't know if that also goes for the mixers/outboard stuff etc you listed.

Well I have the mics and a 2-channel 24/96 soundcard. We have the option to go digital, 2-tracks at a time, already at our disposal. I'm researching the options at this point, and am looking for good deals on the 8 track.

The reason we've been considering ProTools is basically because it is industry standard, and I am sure that we could do a mixdown to a few strings or different channels, then send it to the mastering engineer so he has a wider pallette to work with. I'm worried that sending a Cubase file or N-track file could cause trouble at that stage, and we might as well send a 2 track tape.

I want to produce something good enough to put out there and sound professional. I don't expect to sell a million copies or anything. But I've never been happy with anything we have recorded digital, n-track or ProTools. And most of the records I really like were recorded to tape.