mic preamps and guitar/bass

[wannabecomedeat]

hi everyone,
just back from a couple of drum recording sessions with triggers, now it's time for the bass and guitar, some kind of metal, melodic death, slayerish band...

i'll first list the rig;
marshall jcm2000
crate blue voodoo
crate gfx 212
marshall valvestate 100watts
boss gt6-effect processor
about 6 guitars i could use to record

m-audio delta 1010lt
behringer ub1202 mixer
4tracks tascam portastudio series

tried a couple of settings to record the guitar, with a shure 57, with a shure 57+ one or two akg (s300 something i think), with the marshall preamp and cab or boss gt-6 preamp and cab, crate amp... tried retracking 2 to 4 time every guitar... loud or not, the only thing i didn't try is the tascam built-in preamps.

the result`it sucks lama's ass.
i just can't get a decent sound out of the guitar amp. Even tried di dist with cab sim or di clean with amplitube and guitar rig, nothing good. i came to the conclusion that the delta 1010lt preamps sucks, just as the behringer mixer. I just can't afford paying 1000$ for an album, but still want to have some killer sound (this is why i used triggers on drum).

first question: should i try to use the tascam as a preamp or is it just another piece of sh**?

second: any way i could record the guitar with decent result with the setup i have?

third: If not, which preamp should i buy? (ill go used for something around 300$ CAN used)

fourth: would an external compressor help a lot or can i do it with a good cubase sx plugin (any suggestions are still welcomed!!)

i'm about sure that the problem is the preamp cuz i did a little demo for my band about 1 year ago, with no compressors, but the behringer hi gain preamp insted of the pieces of crap i have now. anyway, can anyone help the little man i am? would be a good action since i record for free at home to help those little kids doing a bit of money for their band

[jtienhaara]

For heavy metal, the distortion should render a compressor irrelevant (though sometimes an external comp can add nice colour). Distortion is compression. For proof, look at the waveform in your sequencing software.

As to the preamp -- personally I would borrow or rent a different *mic* first, or try whatever else you have access to, and see if that helps. However I'm one of the very few people in the world who dislikes the SM57. An Audio Technica ATM25 is generally my first choice for heavy guitars; YMMV. But beyond that, I must say that I agree with the camp that says "transducers (mics + speakers) are the most important points in the signal chain". If the "live" sound is good, but the recorded signal sucks, then check you mics and speakers first. IMHO.

Also I dunno about others here but I've always found it really hard to get Slayer-type distortion. Usually rather than layer 500 tracks of guitar, I'd rather just use a Boss pedal instead of the amp's distortion, and get it over with quickly. Again, YMMV.

I'm sure there will be a flood of preamp suggestions shortly though...

$0.02! Cheers Wannabecomedeat,

Johann

[wannabecomedeat]

how about the dbx760X for 110$ can used
or behringer preamp MIC2200 for 125$ can used
or bluetube presonus for 180$ can used
or m-audio dmp3 [usagé] 200.00 $ can used

which is the best? anything new in that range of price (let's say about 350$ max) that would beat it out?

thnx!

[amra]

Does the type of pre really matter, when recording mega-gain, distorted guitar? It would seem anything that gives you decently clean gain should work. I am not an expert on mixing or recording by any means, but I know good tone, and have gotten some pretty nice metal guitar tone recorded with a soundtech mixer's pres (nothing special) and an SM57.

Maybe there is something else going on? How was the sound bad?

Amra

[Elmo89m]

how long have you worked with mic positioning..sometimes with heavy guitar it is better to have the mics back a little way from the cab...in my experience anyway....the best sound i ever got (granted it was a pos crate amp) was by butting one sm57 two feet higher than the cone and three feet back and another pointed at the cone but two feet back...but that is just with my personal setup...also maybe try recording your amp quieter.

[chessrock]

I think the JCM-2000's are pretty good amps. Very under-rated. They do the clean stuff better than comparably-priced Fenders in my humblest of opinions. And the middle channel just kills for bluesy stuff. They also do sort of a fuzzy, old-school, classic rock tone when switched to the high gain mode. But at it's heaviest, I'd call it much more of an old Sabbath tone rather than a modern Slayer one. That might be part of your problem. It's very much a tube amp.

The Valvestate just sucks. Forgive me -- I just think it's an abomination of mankind. Crates probably aren't going to get you very far, either, to be frank.

I'd say your best bet would be to experiment more with the JCM-2000 on the high gain channel until you get something that at least comes close. The 2000's are midrangy sounding amps to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about dialing in the smiley-face thing; go ahead and jack up the highs and lows, cut the mids, the whole nine. Get it to where you like it -- then back the gain off a few notches to where you almost don't like it. That's when you know you've found the right spot. Then just crank the master gain to where it's too loud to be in the same room with it. Put a dynamic mic up close and off the center of the cone.

If that doesn't work for you, then try using a good distortion pedal on the clean channel.

[amra]

They also do sort of a fuzzy, old-school, classic rock tone when switched to the high gain mode. But at it's heaviest, I'd call it much more of an old Sabbath tone rather than a modern Slayer one.

Very true, speaking strictly tone-wise, in order to get a high gain sound you are going to have to overdrive the high gain channel/pre-amp either with and boss SD-1 (or something similar) or active pickups or a combination if you want to get anywhere near a slayer tone.

Amra

[wannabecomedeat]

allright i'll try the 2 feets up 3 feets away, maibe that'll help as i tried every speakers with every close placement it's possible to think about. i'll also try to cut the mids as hell and see what happens.

thnx

[Strave]

Your pres should be doing you fine. They may be limiting... but not that limiting. If you do need to go out and buy some kind of preamp, go get a sansamp (guitar preamp) rackmount on ebay for like 125-175. They are nice.