classical vs steel-string - machine head orientation

[topolino]

okay, who can tell me why the string-winders (proper name?) are oriented parallel to the frets on a classical guitar, but perpendicular on a steel-string guitar?

[boingoman]

It's a worm gear. The worm needs to fit into the little sprocket on the spring post. The string post on many nylon string guitars is oriented differently than on steel string guitars, so the tuning knob needs to go a different way too.

[Fusioninspace]

I think part of it is just tradition. But also the nylon strings are just much thicker and would probably tend to pop off the top of steel-style tuners while you're trying to put on new strings.

[topolino]

The string post on many nylon string guitars is oriented differently than on steel string guitars

yeah, I know, why?

the nylon strings are just much thicker and would probably tend to pop off

yeah. also I think there's quite a bit less tension with nylon strings rather than steel strings. I just read that a steel string guitar has 175 pounds of tension.

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by topolino

The string post on many nylon string guitars is oriented differently than on steel string guitars

yeah, I know, why?

Oh...I misunderstood. The string wants to have a certain down-angle after the nut, to keep it in the slot, but not too steep, so it doesn't cause tuning problems from too much friction. Having the post mounted like it is in nylon-string guitars keeps the angle the same over the nut no matter how many turns are on the post. Nylon strings stretch a lot, and it is harder to judge how many turns are going to be on the post when they stop stretching. They also usually require more turns to stay on and in tune, and the turns take up more room. Also, bigger post=more friction, more string taken up per turn, and faster rotation of the post as you turn the knob.

A properly set up guitar will have the correct angle cut into the nut. Someone stringing a guitar with vertical posts properly should know how many turns around the post it takes for each string to have the right down angle, and how much the strings will stretch so they end up with the right amount of turns.


ps- like FIS said, tradition probably also plays a part. The guitar has humble beginnings, an instrument of the people, and subjected to hard treatment. Mounting the tuning pegs that way probably protected them as well.

[topolino]

Someone stringing a guitar with vertical posts properly should know how many turns around the post it takes for each string to have the right down angle, and how much the strings will stretch so they end up with the right amount of turns.


so with my steel string, should I be trying to optimize the 'down angle' of the strings above and through the nut, and if so, how? should I be doing this with the nylon, or is it sort of automatically done because of the orientation?

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by topolino

so with my steel string, should I be trying to optimize the 'down angle' of the strings above and through the nut, and if so, how??

I am not a luthier by any stretch.

I was mostly pointing it out as an interesting thing some people might not think about.

I don't worry about it too much, except as a concept. I just try not to have a lot of turns on my post, or just one. This also makes tuning and alternate tunings more accurate and easy.

That being said, here goes:

The slot in the nut will have a flat spot for the string to lie on, and gradually fall away in a curve on the tuning post side.

If you have a spark plug feeler gauge, or something else that fits in the slot, you can lay it in the slot in the nut. It may take a little to get the feel for when the gauge is flat in the slot.
This will show you about the right angle. If you imagine that line going to the string post, you can eyeball the angle.

Basically you would figure out how many turns around the post it takes to get the string to be at the right angle. (You should definitely have your strings so the windings don't overlap, and so they go down the post as you tighten the string.) The tricky part is figuring out how to get the right amount of turns.

Again, it's something many people don't think about, including me, most of the time. I got an idea of about what it should be, and just kind of try to keep it within reason.

I will say this- it definitely makes a difference if you have a strat with a whammy bar. The right angle and a well-cut nut helps a lot keeping the thing in tune, cause the strings don't stick as much.

Originally Posted by topolino

should I be doing this with the nylon, or is it sort of automatically done because of the orientation?

Yes-the sideways posts keep the correct angle. With the nylon, the side-to-side friction is more of a concern. You will see that a lot of nylon string guitars have wider slots at the back of the nut to allow for some side-to-side variation.

[topolino]

You should definitely have your strings so the windings don't overlap....Again, it's something many people don't think about, including me, most of the time.

yeah, I've never really thought about it---correction, it occurs to me (for the first time consciously) that I sometimes actually make the windings cross and overlap on purpose, for some weird aesthetic reason. I guess I chalk it up to my list of Counterproductive Unthought-out Random Habits. Now that you've brought it to my attention I can rectify it. ...thank you very much! good knowledgable replies.

[XLR]

okay, who can tell me why the string-winders (proper name?) are oriented parallel to the frets on a classical guitar, but perpendicular on a steel-string guitar?

Classical guitars used to be made with friction pegs oriented perpendicular to the frets until, I believe, the mid 1800s. Could be that the mechanical tuners were oriented as they were so that the buttons (the part you grab and turn) would stick out more behind the peghead rather than out to the sides, to keep the traditional look from the front.

Flamenco guitars made in the traditional style still use friction pegs. A real pain to use though.

Tim

[topolino]

friction pegs are a pain in the ass, agreed. the purists are into them, but my violin has fine-tuners down past the bridge on all four strings. I thumb my nose at purists (when it's convenient to do so).