"Heavy" guitar sound

[Nilbog]

How do I get a really Heavy, full sounding (distortion) guitar. I'm Micing my amp with an SM57, and adding a little Reverb and Delat with an ART FX1 box. My sound is just flat and weak sounding. Any ideas?
-Nilbog

[ametth]

Have you tried double, triple, quadrupleing the guitars? that may help. Also to get a good tone on tape, you need good tone coming out of your amp. what kind do you have?

[Nilbog]

I'm using a little Squire 15 practice amp. Yeah, I know it sucks, but it's what I got, and I can ctually get a semi-decent sound out of it. How would I go about doubling the guitar? Copy it to another track, then mix the two together on another track?
-N
p.s. You broke the chat room.

[pglewis]

I'd record the track multiple times... the slight variances add a sense of depth. Try different tones and EQ on the different tracks, too. That allows both tracks to occupy it's own "sonic space".

[Cooperman]

Can't but agree with them Nilbog... I usually do at least 4, sometimes 6 rhythm tracks. Everyone a new take... the slight variances in how play each take will make your guitar sound awesome. I know it sound strange but it's true. When I play back one of guitar tracks by itself, I always find that there is nothing particularly special about it... but add another 5 guitars... and KAPOW!!! you're in business.

I'd personally get rid of the delay, I think a touch of reverb can be ok, but usually don't bother... I always find these tend to muddy things up a bit...

I'd also crank the volume if you don't have feedback problems and get real close with the mic.

[Shailat]

Other then what was suggested ( good stuff although coopermans 6 guitar's sounds a little more like breaking down a wall to dust )

You can also try to:

* Compress for a in the face sound
* full volume on the amp - most amps sound more full when turned up
* try to EQ around the 500-600Hz - were most of the body and punch can lay

* Try to mix a direct and amped sound by using a DI. Then to a amp from the di's out to amp jack. Then use a mic on the amp. So you have 2 channals - 1.direct and 1.amped.
Mix them to your liking.






[This message has been edited by Shailat (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Buck62]

POD POD POD
POD POD POD
POD POD POD

[Shailat]

Ed,

Forget for a sec about the console and recording stuff etc....

I find that a boost at 200Hz tends to muddy the sound and sometimes make the sound dull. Actully a cut at 200Hz can add more punch and clarity - leaving room for the lows and highs.

What do you think !?

[Nilbog]

Wow! Thanks guys! This is great stuff...
-Nil

[Cooperman]

Breaking down a wall to dust - I think that's actually a very good description of how you should go about recording a good rhythm guitar sound...

I've always considered that when laying down rhythm guitar tracks you've got to have a workman-like attitude - you've just got to push on as hard as you can and get the job done - even if it does mean a lot of takes.

To my ears, there is nothing worse than have a potentially good song ruined by not taking the time to record the guitars properly. I would say that most metal bands use at least 4 guitar tracks(2L&2R).

The hard part is when all the other instruments cut out leaving one guitar - this of course is doubled... you have to be very patient making sure that that the 2 different guitar tracks sounds like only one.

Nilbog... once you've done some experimenting, why don't you post a short 10-15sec mp3 of what you can record and then we can give you some more ideas.



[This message has been edited by Cooperman (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Nilbog]

Will do

[monty]

I'll have to agree with prick...er, I mean Sonusman about the tape. I know I was disapointed when I first got my Cakewalk going and the VS880EX. Very thin. My old Fostex 8 just makes the distorted guitar sounds phatter. Even my old Teac 4. Even my old Tascam 4. Even any old damn tape deck I have makes it sound better. Shit. And that pisses me off.

[gonzo7]

Hey Nilbog,
I tend to disagree with the technique of laying down multiple tracks over and over. This is good but 4 me it tends to soften(or give a stereo chorus effect) the sound. What I like to do is keep the amp turned down and double mic, one on the edge of the speaker the other towards the center of the speaker. The reason I dont like the amp full blast is that you may lose head room. Ive tried 3 mics and 4 but found that 2 is the best for me. Good luck.

[randompurpleness]

yo, If you have a million tracks to work with, then go with the idea of layering more than 1. The only thing with that is that you gotta make sure you play it the exact same way every time. If you don't, you're whole sound will sound muddy when you're done. I use the POD. Sometimes I hate the sound coming out of it and wish I never bought it, but as I get better at finding a good tone just by playin around with everything, I realize what a piece of equiptment it is. For micing the amp, here's how you get a fuller sound. First of all, the different frequencies of the amp travel at different wavelengths. So if you put one mic right up to the speaker, you're only gonna get the highs, even though when you listen to it you hear a good sound, because you're standing further away which lets the sounds blend together. Try putting one up to the speaker, then putting a condenser in the middle of the room 5-10' from the amp. This way you'll pick up more of what you hear, plus the "natural room" sound, so you won't have to add as much reverb to the amp (also leads to muddiness). Good luck man.

[Kelly Holdridge]

DUN-dun-dun-DUN-dun-dun-DUN-dadda-dahdda!

Momma's talkin to me try to tell me how to live!

DUN-dun-dun-DUN-dun-dun-DUN-Dunda-DUNDA!

But I can't even hear her 'cause my head is like a sive!

(couldn't help myself!)

[ustadjohnny]

I can't help but agree with Gonzo. Multiple micing works fine for me. What I generally do is have 2 57s one real close to the amp and one say a feet (or two, depending on the gain of your amp) away. Mix them together and see which gives more of the sound you're looking for. You can even try 3 mics, one behind the amp(Only if you have an open back amp) Crank up the volume of your amp and get a really hot signal in.

[David B]

Try to record in a "live-sounding" room rather than a dead one.

Use a close mike on the cab's speaker for definition, and a second "ambient" room mike for depth. Where you place this ambient mike is a more of an art than a science. The soud will vary greatlys as you move the mike. If possible, listen to the sounds in various differnt places. Have one person play the guitar, one person move the mike around, and a third listen to the sound being captured.

Try to catch sound bouncing off of hard wood floors ot tile walls.

Once you have both sounds on tape, you can mix and blend them until they sound the way you want them.

[T.J.Hooker]

Man, You Need Tubes in your amp, and 4-10's in your cab for that PUNCH!, with an SM-57 wearin' a hole in the grille clothe. off to the side of the speaker not centered. About 4-5 tracks of it. I read where jerry cantrells (AIC) bigass chunky rhythms come from six tracks of different tone set-ups like maybe 4-12's, or 4-10's, or 2-12's, or more verb, and stuff. They gotta be different for the sonic value like pglewis was saying. They can't just be copies.
That's the way uh-huh! uh-huh!

[chattbox]

hetfield from metallisuck would layer up to 16 tracks on the older stuff. but not with out a compromise the bass tracks were mid ranged becuase the guitars were so thick and bottom endy. in your case 30 tracks of a gutar coming out of that amp will probably still sound thin. I would try using a condenser mike in the middle of the room move it all around till you find the sweet spot and use an sm57 or a 58 with the ball removed miked in close crank your little amp piss off the nieghbors and phatten your tracks!! you can buy a cheap condenser from radio shack that sounds pretty good for the price grab a pair there great over heads on drums they also sound about as good as a set of senhiesers couldnt believe it my self but they do. optimus unidirectional 33-3017 good luck

[Aquanaut]

definetly go with the POD. Even if you want to use your effects, just set it to the tube preamp setting, and what you hear is what'll record. it is a great piece of equipment.

>>>mike

[Brian Grey]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gonzo7:
Hey Nilbog,
I tend to disagree with the technique of laying down multiple tracks over and over. This is good but 4 me it tends to soften(or give a stereo chorus effect) the sound. What I like to do is keep the amp turned down and double mic, one on the edge of the speaker the other towards the center of the speaker. The reason I dont like the amp full blast is that you may lose head room. Ive tried 3 mics and 4 but found that 2 is the best for me. Good luck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You find that recording multiple tracks softens your sound?? Wow, now that's the first time I've heard that one. Are you paning your guitars left and right? If not, that will give you a "chorus" effect. I've never heard from anyone and I've never experienced softening to the music if I douple a rythm guitar. Recording multiple guitars all of a sudden puts your CD above those guys who went into a studio to record a demo of their band and they just didn't know any better so they recorded exactly what each musician does live. If you want to add a bit of proffesionalism to your sound, at least TRY recording multiple guitars, and don't forget to pan them. I still remember the first time I tried it... I hit play, and heard the sound coming from the speakers and got a HUGE smile on my face and just sat amazed at the sound I was hearing.

[Nikki7]

Here's a (possibly) forgotten guitar recording technique: I remember Joe Perry talking years ago about recording Toys in the Attic era Aerosmith guitars. He said they often recorded with the amp set really low. If you listen to "Walk this Way" the guitar has a really thimpin' quality to it. This should make sense when you think about it because as you turn your amp up it invariably starts to compress (gain does the same thing, right?) Also if you listen to some of the classic AC/DC recordings you'll find that they were using WAY less distortion than you may remember. Because it sounds ROCKIN' we tend to associate that with more distortion (or overdrive), but once I applied this kind of reasoning to guitar recording I started to get some amazing results. I set my Marshall JMP really low...that point where it JUST starts to make sound and lo and behold...BIG GUITAR SOUND!! I also used to subscribe to the many many tracks thing (a la Boston) but when I heard RHCP's "Californication" CD I noticed that they were using a minimunm of tracks and it sounded great. I tried that and it's a great alternative to using lots of guitar tracks...you just have to play a lot more accurately since you no longer have the law of averages on your side.

[Brian Grey]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki7:
when I heard RHCP's "Californication" CD I noticed that they were using a minimunm of tracks and it sounded great.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think their new album sounds SO dull compared to their last one. All the songs are good starts, much like Creed (which I also think sounds very thin) but none of the songs are like One Hot Minute. Their last guitarist knew what he was doing, and their producer knew what he was doing. This old/new guitar player just doesn't do it for me.

That's my two cents worth on that... sorry if I offended anyone...

[skankboy]

I don't have the best equipment in the world, and it sounds like the original posters doesn't either, but it gets the job done. Here's how I beef up my sound.

Let's face it, doing a bunch of overdubs on a cassette four track isn't a good idea. All that ping ponging will generate your sound, leading to shitty sounding masters (but you knew that already). When I record a heavy song, I need a thick fatty boomin' sound on the one track. And I get it, but now without some noodling.

1) I only own a Samick LS-31 Fat Strat copy. Killer tone, it doesn't have.

I usually set this to use either, the neck pick-up (deep rich sound), or the top and the middle (deep rich, and versitile sound).

I have some crazy assed economy duncan pick-ups on my guitar, and they sound nice. My body, I believe is made of a composite (english: particle, or plywood), so the sound isn't as rich as a solid wood.

But if you've got a Fender Deluxe Fat Strat (send it to me), a Les Paul (I agree, nice heavy tone, or any Epiphone made of Korina, you'll get a fuller tone. Korina guitars sound nicer and fuller than any guitar I've ever played in my life.

2) My amp is a Peavey Rage 15 watt. Sure, it's not a tube, but it still sounds surprisingly full for a solid state.

If you've got better, you're damn lucky.

3) Now the secert to my full tone is my DOD TEC4X multi-effects unit.

Adding in just the right amount of DELAY and setting the tone right (I usually go Low cranked, Mid almost nil, and high almost cranked). A kiss of reverb also helps my toneless ass.

4) If you've got the scratch or the bones (money) to fling (buy) a few different sets of strings, do it. Find a set that sounds nice to you. Old strings lack the tone you need.

[monty]

I tried what Nikki7 suggested with low amp volume and a POD. I did a comparison plugging the POD directly into a Gadgetlabs card and then plugged the POD into a little Peavey, miked it into an Art dual MP, and then into the card. The latter sounded better to me. I think I'll try it again with a split before the POD so a can run it parallel with another amp and mic, a Rocktron Sustainer and a quadraverb with a very short one hit repeat, and put each one on a separate track which would be 4 tracks if I use the stereo outs on the POD and Quadraverb. That should make it sound pretty phat.

[This message has been edited by monty (edited 07-31-2000).]