Stereo Widening

[MILLSY5]

Hi all,

Could anybody please explain exactly what stereo widening is, how it should be used (ie on individual instruments, the whole mix or both ) and any draw backs of using it in the mix.

Thanks in advance for any answers

Keith

[bigwillz24]

Originally Posted by MILLSY5

Hi all,

Could anybody please explain exactly what stereo widening is, how it should be used (ie on individual instruments, the whole mix or both ) and any draw backs of using it in the mix.

Thanks in advance for any answers

Keith

It takes a mono track and make it sound stereo....

Try this.....

Take a MONO track pan it Left then setup an AUX channel and put a delay effect on it pan it to the Right.

Bring up the level of the Aux channel so the it is level with the original source....

Then raise the the delay up to about 50 -60 ms give a listen ....

Hope that helped

[MILLSY5]

Hi Will, thanks for the help, i tried your suggestion with different types of feedback setting and i guess it supposed to be 0 or close to that. Is this the same as a stereo enhancer????

Thanks

Keith

[Farview]

A stereo widener changes the phase relationship between the two sides. Taken to the extreme, (180 degrees) it will cancel any information that was in the center of the image. This has the effect of making something sound more stereo. It also will give you a headache after a while. You have to use it on a stereo track as an insert.

[XLR]

I've used several stereo wideners, mostly the stereo imaging in Izotope Ozone. Used them for both stereo-izing mono files and widening stereo files. I record just solo acoustic guitar.

Actually, to say I used them is misleading because when A/B'ing different options have in every case preferred using panning and reverb tweaks to enhance the spaciousness of the recording.

To me, the stereo wideners tend to sound really good at a first listen, but less so when A/B'ing with other processing options. And the ones I used created mono compatibility problems that are always a concern, thinking of what systems your music might be heard on.

Tim

[ecktronic]

Stereo widener can mess up a mix by making it sound muffled and maybe distorted slightly if used to extremes.
I use stereo widening at mastering. Using this can bring out guitars quite a bit if panned.

[RawDepth]

I guess what I am doing is like widening then.

I am trying to fatten up guitar and vocal tracks. In my multitrack software, I create a second duplicate track of say, the mono guitar, and then slide one of them along the timeline slightly to offset it from the other. I only slide the track about 0.05 or 0.10 seconds. It creates a sort of cross delay effect or a wider stereo image depending on how I pan them.

I am afraid, however, that I am causing some cancellation to occur in some frequencies. My software doesn’t have a mono button, so I can’t easily check it. I guess I could mix the two together to a mono track and then compare it with the original.

It does indeed sound different, but I'm not sure that it sounds better.

[MILLSY5]

Cheers guys thats most appreciated. I'll have to have a little play with one to see what i think. I certainly dont need anything else muddying up my mixes.


Keith

[Farview]

Originally Posted by RawDepth

I guess what I am doing is like widening then.

No, what you are doing is wasting your time. As long as you are standing there staring at the computer, grab the guitar and play the part again. It will sound a thousand times better than any cloning trick and it won't introduce the giant phase problems that cloning will.

[giraffe]

is stereo widening ever used by a real mastering studio?

i don't use it because it seems like one of thoes things that may do more harm than good if you don't know when not to use it, but i like the way it sounds.

[Farview]

Mid side processing is used by mastering studios.

[geoff956]

Farview,
Re. phasing:-
You touched on this in answer to my comments on another thread.
I have to say that I have had no problems with phasing using a copied delayed track and panned opposite the first track, provided delay and panning is experimented with.
Also, your suggestion of playing the track again is not always practical as some parts don't lend themselves to this. What then?

[Farview]

Originally Posted by geoff956

Farview,
Re. phasing:-
You touched on this in answer to my comments on another thread.
I have to say that I have had no problems with phasing using a copied delayed track and panned opposite the first track, provided delay and panning is experimented with.
Also, your suggestion of playing the track again is not always practical as some parts don't lend themselves to this. What then?

The phasing isn't noticable until you listen to it in mono. Mono compatability doesn't seem like a big deal, but it is. If anything you are doing is in danger of being on the radio, TV, etc.. you will need to have it at least some what mono compatable.

I don't understand, what parts don't lend them selves to doubling? If you played it once, you should be able to play it again. I am also talking rhythm parts mostly. Doubling solos is kind of neat, but is not the norm. Anyway, you should be able to play your solos again as well.

[geoff956]

Fair point Farview re the mono, although I don't see any of my stuff on the radio in the near future.
As I said before chord type parts are ok for double tracking but if you're into 'free form' type solos then repeating them is a problem.
I don't think I have ever (or even could) play the same solo again note for note, at least not close enough for a double track.
Anyway it's more fun to make it up as you go along.
So, how do you thicken something like that in the mix?

[Farview]

I would attack it at the source. If you want a thicker lead tone, get a thicker lead tone. If you want a stereo effect, add a chorus, delay or reverb. Most of the time, if you take the lead out of the center, you loose focus. If you do the track cloning thing, it will be lost in mono. Mono happens more than you think, just listen to your stereo from across the house. That's mono. Any low end that might get sent to a sub woofer (not a big deal for guitar leads) will be in mono. Any phase problems will really mess with the low end. Hell, just playing something to someone over the phone is in mono.
end rant

[volltreffer]

If you don't think you can redo a second version of a track, rerecord it any way. try another first take that you CAN double. In the end play with them. Some 'accidental' parts can sound very cool if they let the doubled guitar 'break apart'...

Doubleing is not worth, IMHO. You'll always end up in having to listen to a song in mono when it would have been important not to... Try a delay fitting the songs speed instead. One tap left, one right. Can open up a song very much in terms of stereo image and 'room airiness'.

aXel

[robin watson]

Originally Posted by Farview

Mono happens more than you think, just listen to your stereo from across the house. That's mono.

So phase cancelation occurs if I'm standing in the kitchen listening to something in my living room? Never really though about it in that way before.

[GamezBond]

To avoid phase problems, all you have to do is take the left channel and take it back a few milliseconds, and push the right (if you have a mono copy your using also) foward a few.

[RawDepth]

So, what I gathered from this thread is that stereo widening is bad. Almost everyone in here has told a horror story about it.

Timothy Lawler - "...And the ones I used created mono compatibility problems."

Farview - "...It also will give you a headache after a while."

Ecktronic - "...Stereo widener can mess up a mix."


Why then do so many mastering engineers use it? Why is it usually included with mastering plugins and finalizers?

Also, what is the difference between widening and what I described earlier about doubling a track? All I did was send a delayed portion of the track to the other speaker.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by GamezBond

To avoid phase problems, all you have to do is take the left channel and take it back a few milliseconds, and push the right (if you have a mono copy your using also) foward a few.

If you do this you are not getting rid of the phase problem, you are just shifting the frequency that is affected by it. By the time you have shifted it so far that the phase problem is gone, it will be obviously delayed.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by RawDepth

Why then do so many mastering engineers use it? Why is it usually included with mastering plugins and finalizers?.

A lot of times mastering engineers use them to colapse the stereo image a bit. To make the mix not so wide. Stereo widening plugins (or hardware) are useful but can easily be taken too far.

Originally Posted by RawDepth

Also, what is the difference between widening and what I described earlier about doubling a track? All I did was send a delayed portion of the track to the other speaker.

Widening is when you take a stereo signal and change the apparent width by changing the relationship between the mid (mono) and the side information. If you take a widener and put it at it's extreme setting, anything that was panned to the center would disappear and the left and right signal would be out of phase with each other. If you go to the extreme the other way, you get mono.
What you were doing is adding a delay that created stereo. In order to use a widener, you need a stereo signal to begin with.

[jamtheguitarman]

has anybody got windows media player 9 i think. it has a thing called WOW or something. it sais its a sterio widener. try playing around with it.

[masteringhouse]

Sorry coming in late on this topic (been a busy boy lately).

Just came to backup Farview's comments. There are a few different varieties of stereo enhancement which include comb filtering, delay, phase adjustments and M/S processing. The biggest ill of them is usually how the mix is affected in regards to mono compatibility and phase distortion.