Newbie - pulling my hair out over mics!

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Another recording newbie here, hoping for some kind responses... I've recently gotten into recording with a Yammie AW-2816, fostex monitors, some AT phones... You know the deal, standard "not anywhere near pro, but I want to make enjoyable tracks" kind of gear. Here goes the question...

I have appx. $300 left in my budget for mics (and cables, stands, pop filter...). I already have one passable mic I picked up for live performance (Senn. e35). I'm going to be recording male and female vocals (both mid-range), acoustic guitar (Taylor 812c small body), and occasionally a fender electric amp. After reading posts for literally hours on end, I'm officially stumped. And to add to the problem, I happen to be a good six hour drive from the nearest place I could find even two or three of my target mics in the same spot.

On my list are... AKG C2000B (which comes with lots o' extra gear, filter, shockmount...), AT 3035 (also with stand, cables...), SP B1, MXL 67M, MXL 2003, and recently added to the list ADK A-51. As for SDC's, I'm not even sure if I need one, judging from what I've read in various posts. However, I have been wrong before, and this may very well be another one to add to the list. On that list were MXL 603S and Joemeek JM27.

I can probably knock out two of any of these mics at an online retailer, or I was even thinking about picking up two LDC's (SPB1 and 67M) plus a SDC on ebay.

I hate to think I'm asking the same questions you folks have answered over and over again, but I'm at the end of my rope here. Any feedback would be appreciated, and again, if this is getting redundant ("man, ANOTHER newbie!") surf right on by. Thanks ahead of time, and I'm back to the daily grind (ahhh, lesson plans for my high school civics kiddies!)

Danny

[PapillonIrl]

IMHO ?

Used Shure KSM series, add a used Unidyne III for guitar cabs later. If You can stretch to a KSM44 you won't regret it. It will do everything you listed well, just get used to using the switchable pattern with your room.

Nathan

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Thanks Nathan! I'll take all the feedback I can get, this mic thing has become the most stressful part of the "recording purchase." Keep the suggestions coming...

Again, humbly yours,
Danny

[PapillonIrl]

No problem, I know what it's like, I live in Southern Ireland. Try-before-you-buy is often not an option.

Of the mics you listed I've owned/tried the following.

SP B1 - Useful, doesn't live up to the hype. Owned one, borrowed another, they sounded pretty different. This worries me.

AT 3035 - Borrowed on many occasions. Solid, useful mic. Doesn't work on everything, rarely shines on vocals. Never terrible.

Senn e335. - Nasty highmid boost that sounds pleasing the first time you sompare it to a 57. Designed for live use with sh*tty PAs IMO.

MXL 2001 - Used it once, tried it on acoustic guitar and as mono overhead. Hated it, can't remember why to be honest.

AKG C2000B - This is a mic that turns up often in my FOH gigs, because the bands PA hire guy carries them. I wouldn't buy one for studio use, on mellow instruments they seem a little harsh. On bright ones they will cut your head off. I my case that means feedback.

MXL603 - I own a (supposedly) matched pair of these. They sound different to each other. I have to admit they get used alot though. They are a little bright, a wide peak around the 8k range, but I get alot of drummers with dirty old cymbals that are pretty dull sounding, so these have served me well. Decent for some tom duties too. Very nice when coupled with a LDC on an acoustic (again, it can't be too bright sounding).

To put things in context. I've used my KSM44 ahead of all of these on:

Vox (Cardoid)
Acoustic (sometimes coupled with 603 or 414) (Cardoid/Omni/Fig 8)
Overhead (Mono or MS with 414) (Cardoid/Fig 8)
Drum room mic (Cardoid usually)
Outside kick mic (Cardoid)
Sax (Cardoid usually)
Guitar cab ambience/room mic (Any pattern depending)
Backing vox/choir (Fig 8/Omni)
Underneath snare (Cardoid)

It's a workhorse. And it's built like a tank. There are other options in roughly the same price range that I haven't tried... but don't underestimate the flexibility of a multipattern mic that sounds decent. Especially if your room sounds good.

Nathan

[royharper3220]

hate to sidetrack but I want to know.
PapillonIrl how do you usually mic ac guitar with the LDC and SDC? I'm guessing SDC at 12/14th fret and LDC some where around the bridge. I just wanted to know since you like that combo so much and I'm getting my first LDC soon.

[DJL]

Originally Posted by UNCTaylorplayer

Another recording newbie here, hoping for some kind responses... I've recently gotten into recording with a Yammie AW-2816, fostex monitors, some AT phones... You know the deal, standard "not anywhere near pro, but I want to make enjoyable tracks" kind of gear. Here goes the question...

I have appx. $300 left in my budget for mics (and cables, stands, pop filter...). I already have one passable mic I picked up for live performance (Senn. e35). I'm going to be recording male and female vocals (both mid-range), acoustic guitar (Taylor 812c small body), and occasionally a fender electric amp. After reading posts for literally hours on end, I'm officially stumped. And to add to the problem, I happen to be a good six hour drive from the nearest place I could find even two or three of my target mics in the same spot.

On my list are... AKG C2000B (which comes with lots o' extra gear, filter, shockmount...), AT 3035 (also with stand, cables...), SP B1, MXL 67M, MXL 2003, and recently added to the list ADK A-51. As for SDC's, I'm not even sure if I need one, judging from what I've read in various posts. However, I have been wrong before, and this may very well be another one to add to the list. On that list were MXL 603S and Joemeek JM27.

I can probably knock out two of any of these mics at an online retailer, or I was even thinking about picking up two LDC's (SPB1 and 67M) plus a SDC on ebay.

I hate to think I'm asking the same questions you folks have answered over and over again, but I'm at the end of my rope here. Any feedback would be appreciated, and again, if this is getting redundant ("man, ANOTHER newbie!") surf right on by. Thanks ahead of time, and I'm back to the daily grind (ahhh, lesson plans for my high school civics kiddies!)

Danny

Hmm... let's see. $300 mic budget for recording male and female vocals, acoustic guitar, and guitar amp. And you already have an E35.

I'd get two mic's... a LDC mic... (like a CAD M179), and a SDC mic... (like a Marshall MXL603S). Of course it's best to audition mics before buying.

You could record everything you want plus more if you had a LDC, SDC, and a dynamic in your mic locker.

[Richard Monroe]

I like C2000B a lot. I agree it wouldn't be my choice for a live mic, d/t feedback issues. I agree KSM44 rocks, but it's also a $600 or so mic.-Richie

[PapillonIrl]

Originally Posted by royharper3220

hate to sidetrack but I want to know.
PapillonIrl how do you usually mic ac guitar with the LDC and SDC? I'm guessing SDC at 12/14th fret and LDC some where around the bridge. I just wanted to know since you like that combo so much and I'm getting my first LDC soon.

I like to start with the SDC around the 12/14 fret as you said, or where the body meets the neck, varying distance while listening on a pair of good isolating headphones. I use these http://www.remoteaudio.com/hn7506.htm

Then I listen in mono to both mics on the cans as I move the LDC. It sometimes ends up near the scratch guard pointing up about a foot away, sometimes over the players shoulder. Then I check if works in stereo with the mix of whether I should just balance the mics the way I want them and leave in mono.

A LDC used this way seems to fill in the 'missing' stuff from a SDC's acoustic sound very well. I found, when I started using this technique, that I tended to often go for a wide stereo image because it sounded so lush. This can get old pretty quick, especially with strummed parts, as it can dominate a mix a bit too much a become distracting. Well thought out pans with intricate picking parts though... nice.

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Quick question... Any votes for picking up a SP B1, MXL 67M, and MXL603S? All three would still fall within my price range. I guess my main question is... is it better to have more mics (even lower end) for versatility, or drop most of the money in one pop on a higher end mic?

Thanks again!

Danny

[XLR]

And to add to the problem, I happen to be a good six hour drive from the nearest place I could find even two or three of my target mics in the same spot.

I think auditioning mics is toughest with low-cost mics. I mean toughest in aspects of getting ahold of the mic's to hear them, which is the only effective way I've found to pick what works. Pro audio rental services are a good source for trying mic's because you can use it in your own studio setting, but they're less likely to have the low end stuff.

If I was looking for a budget mic, I think I'd find a local small scale studio who's mic cabinet had the ones I wanted to compare, and that had a room to try them that was similar acoustically to my own recording space. I'd buy 2 hrs of time, take in my own preamp (since it affects the mic so much), guitar, and one or two of my own mics to use as reference points in my comparison and record those also. I'd have them put up one mic after the other, recording each each, unprocessed, to a wave file which I'd take home. You could be very scientific with positioning, consistency of playing, etc. if you wanted. The expense would be worth it to me, even if it cost as much as the budget mic itself because I'd know I was getting a tool that really worked for me, and it'd be really fun.

Just my 2c,
Tim

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Great idea! And again, I really appreciate all the replies I've been getting...

Danny

[chessrock]

I kinda' like the idea of picking up a used KSM-32. It sounds like you need something fairly versatile, and that would be a pretty safe choice for most things. Plus, you'd be getting the opportunity to work with a real mic as opposed to a toy you'll probably replace in a few years after you grow tired of it. Another possibility along the same lines would be a new AT 4040.

[UNCTaylorplayer]

"fairly versatile..."

That was actually one of the things I felt cloudy on after reading post after post in the Microphone forum. I kept getting the feeling that there was no truly versatile mic. (Versatile meaning one that could work for recording vocals, Ac. guitars, and amps.) I picked up a lot of "The B1 is good but bright, wouldn't work for [fill in the blank]", "MXL 67 is great for vocals, but that's about it", and I remembered some comments about "AKG C2000B is great for backgrounds, but the mid-diameter condenser is limiting..." Again, none of this is verbatim, but no one really seemed to say, "Hey, I'm happy with this mic. It works great, and I can use it for lots of applications." I felt like the consensus was that you really had to pick a mic that was best for each application, and my funds were definitely a limiting factor here.

I worry that maybe I'm being nitpicky, or overly cautious, or overly focused on what doesn't work with particular mics. I just don't know.

I'm guessing that for versatility, I'd want something with a pretty flat response? That being the case, I'd have to achieve most of my "character" with mic placement and adjustments from the board, correct?

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and I'll keep taking all the advice you folks are willing to dish out!

Danny

[XLR]

That being the case, I'd have to achieve most of my "character" with mic placement ...

I think that's a wise approach. The more I record the more I believe that the sound of the instrument in the room and mic placement are 90% of the equation.

Tim

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by UNCTaylorplayer

I picked up a lot of "The B1 is good but bright, wouldn't work for [fill in the blank]", "MXL 67 is great for vocals, but that's about it..."

Yea, but keep in mind you're also dealing a lot of Studio Projects slapies on this board. he he Honestly, a very small percentage of the guys on this board have used any real mics. The ones that do probably don't have a lot of interest in responding to another thread about toy microphones.

I worry that maybe I'm being nitpicky, or overly cautious, or overly focused on what doesn't work with particular mics.

That's probably a valid concern.

I'm guessing that for versatility, I'd want something with a pretty flat response? That being the case, I'd have to achieve most of my "character" with mic placement and adjustments from the board, correct?

For the most part. EQ's not a bad tool either.

[cavedog101]

"EQ in the hands of the unwashed and unknowing is a frightful thing to behold...."This is a tough question to field mostly because of the budget.I think I saw on the web,ebay probably, that some dealers were still offering the ADK package of 1 A51 model V and an SC-1 with cables and clips for around 2 bills.These can be real nice mics...I say 'can be' simply because there were some electronics problems through the run of the A51's...ADK's supplier had some bad boards...So buying these will be a crap shoot..perhaps a check on the warranty available would be prudent....HOWEVER their ability to do the job you're seeking is not an issue.Plus you have cash left over for that most magical of all mics ...the Shure SM57....and a stand...maybe even a couple of On-stage booms ....should get you by.DJL's advice to have one of each...ala: LDC,SDC,dynamic...is sound truth.Buying used through the net gets you possibilties for your budget but leaves you no room for pre-listening.

The 'Other' solution is to pony up the cash for a KSM44 and be done with it.Its a mic you'll never sell and it will absolutely work on 98% of sources you throw at it.And work very well.

[XLR]

I guess my main question is... is it better to have more mics (even lower end) for versatility, or drop most of the money in one pop on a higher end mic?

Hearing the mic's would tell you that too. I think verbalizations about sound quality can be misleading.

If you think of the time investment in recording you're likely to make, the value of your time and how you might use the recordings, spending $1400 on a Schoeps, or double for a pair, might not seem too outrageous. A mic like the CMC6 MK41 can be used on many things, including voice with the right angle and a pop screen. It'll make you smile and give you the shivers at the same time.

Oops, sorry for getting so touchy-feely.

Tim

[DJL]

Originally Posted by UNCTaylorplayer

I guess my main question is... is it better to have more mics (even lower end) for versatility, or drop most of the money in one pop on a higher end mic?

Thanks again!

Danny

Yeah, it's much better to have different mics for specific jobs rather than trying to use just one mic for everything.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by DJL

Yeah, it's much better to have different mics for specific jobs rather than trying to use just one mic for everything.

Yea, but what if it comes down to a bunch of chepies versus one nice one?

[DJL]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Yea, but what if it comes down to a bunch of chepies versus one nice one?

I have mixed feelings about that depending on the mics... for example, the Marshall MXL 603S is a cheap budget mic... but it can sound awesome on acoustic instruments.

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Yea, but what if it comes down to a bunch of chepies versus one nice one?

This is actually one of my main questions, and I'm super-excited to see this conversation starting... If you're on a budget [and assembling a home studio], is it better to have one uber-nice mic or a few to fill specific applications....?

(I have to say I'm thrilled to get this sort of response on a thread, especially as a newbie... I'm grateful, inspired that such knowledge is out there, and rejuvenated in my quest to complete my mini project studio.)

Danny

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by DJL

I have mixed feelings about that depending on the mics... for example, the Marshall MXL 603S is a cheap budget mic... but it can sound awesome on acoustic instruments.

I agree with that, and I also have mixed feelings. I guess it would depend on what mics we're talking about, specifically.

If I had the theoretical gun to the head, and had to choose between the following ...

* 603 for accoustic
* SM-57 for clean electric
* Marshal V-67 for vocals

Or

* One solid mic for all three ... something like a KSM-44 ... maybe a C-414 or a Blue Dragonfly.

I just don't think there'd be any question, there. I'd feel a lot more comfortable with one really solid mic. The 67 is a worthless piece of crap in my book, and would be a major liability in just about any vocal tracking session. The other two I'd be fine with ... but I might still feel better with the nicer mic, depending on the situation.

[UNCTaylorplayer]

Another bump to the top here, but...

I've searched and seen a lot of good feedback on the CAD M179 as a versatile and nice sounding mic. Are switchable patterns going to help get me closer to my "vocal, guitar, occasional amps" goal?

And, if I went with the 179 as a LDC at about $200 with gear, what would be a smart move for the other mic... SDC? Brighter/darker LDC? Or, replace the Senn. 835 with a SM57?

Getting closer to the finish line, thanks to all of your collective responses!
Again, all the knowledge and advice I've found here is priceless, and I feel lucky to have found such a rich resource.

Danny

Danny

[DJL]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I agree with that, and I also have mixed feelings. I guess it would depend on what mics we're talking about, specifically.

If I had the theoretical gun to the head, and had to choose between the following ...

* 603 for accoustic
* SM-57 for clean electric
* Marshal V-67 for vocals

Or

* One solid mic for all three ... something like a KSM-44 ... maybe a C-414 or a Blue Dragonfly.

I just don't think there'd be any question, there. I'd feel a lot more comfortable with one really solid mic. The 67 is a worthless piece of crap in my book, and would be a major liability in just about any vocal tracking session. The other two I'd be fine with ... but I might still feel better with the nicer mic, depending on the situation.

I hear what you're saying bro... and of course we disagree about the V67G... but that's nothing new... lol. Anyway, as you know... I have and like both the KMS44 and C414... but, I still use the V67G, SM57 and 603S's too.

UNCTaylorplayer... in my opinion, the CAD M179 is one of the best (if not the best) LDC vocal + type mics under $200 on the market... however, it's not a KSM44.

[UNCTaylorplayer]

The search is narrowing down, and the suggestions have been both guiding and enlightening...

At this point, its looking like one LDC and one SDC (and I'll hang on to my current Senn. 835 for live and random uses.)

For the LDC... either a CAD 179 or Shure KSM 27. I've read they are both great, semi-neutral mics. I got a chance to spend some time on The Listening Sessions page, and found the sound of the 179 to be quite appealing, neutral, but warm. Is the sure similar? The 179 has switchable patterns, the Shure is standing on a bombproof reputation (plus it comes with a shockmount). Versatility is key, and keeping in mind these will be my only mics until the next round of saving up dough, I'd love to have a vote or two in either direction.

The SDC seems a bit easier, still floating between an MXL 603S or Joemeek JM27.

Thanks again for the feedback, and I hope to wrap this exausting search up soon!

Danny