Recording Violin & Piano

[jaba]

I'm new to recording and I appreciate everyone's comments.

I own two matched MXL 603 mics and a MXL 67G. I record classical violin with a piano accompaniment and sometimes solo piano(bright yamaha grand) and solo violin.

I'm trying to first decide if buying a more expensive mic like the highly recommended Neumann KM84 or U47,U48 will make a noticeable difference. Right now my recordings sound a little metallic and edgy, but very good overall.

Also, as far as mic positioning.......I've recorded with one 603 near the piano and one facing my violin a couple of feet away and I place the 67G in the back of the room. I pan the 603's slightly right and slightly left.

I'm not really trying to get 'separation' since we really need to be close to each other and hear each other for our music. Would using the "XY" technique make an improvement? Also, if I use the "XY" technique, how would I pan each mic?

Thank You!

Benjamin

[krs]

Yes Neumann mics will get rid of that stelly edge you're talking about. The difference will be significant.

As for mic placement:

It depends a little on the situation. If it is an audition cd for the violinist (like I just did last week!), then almost certainly they will be under-rehearsed and you don't need or want too much piano, and it's all about the violin.

Otherwise if it is a normal concert situation, I would have the musicians set up normally to play. I would use a stereo pair in ORTF and judge how close to get to them based primarily on the hall. Use your ears to find a sweet spot, and remember to think ahead to the desired end result.

if you are recording straight to stereo, messing around with a third mic just because you have it is not worthwhile, it's better to commit to your main pair and make sure they're in the right place. Simple is good and it means the musicians don't have to wait around for you to get it right. If you have an extra track to record to, by all means throw up the LDC back in the hall and see what comes out of it.

Good luck!

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by jaba

I'm not really trying to get 'separation' since we really need to be close to each other and hear each other for our music. Would using the "XY" technique make an improvement? Also, if I use the "XY" technique, how would I pan each mic?

Try the 603s in ORTF, starting about six feet away from the musicians. Actually before you set up the mics, put yourself at six feet away and walk back and forth until you get a good mix in your head Then put the mics there and repeat.

As for panning, you can go anywhere from hard pan in, start all the way and then bring 'em in until you get a stereo sound you like.

As for your tone, the 603s seem to be a little bright based on what I've read, if the mic positioning doesn't help, try a little treble rolloff.

Yeah, the KM84s will likely sound better, but they will cost a very pretty penny--and a pair of U47s? Can I borrow some money?

The current Neumann model is KM184, but if you're looking to upgrade, there are other choices along the way, according to your budget: Shure, Josephson, Schoeps, MT Gefell.

[XLR]

I agree with the previous advice. 603 pair in ORTF, and find the sweet spot in the room. Leave out the 3rd mic further out so it doesn't get phasey.

Beware though if you try really high quality mic's as you may never be satisfied with anything less. The Neumann KM184 is very bright, but it's a nicer bright than the 603s. I rented a pair of KM184s to try and didn't like them for my use. The KM84 isn't made anymore so you'd have to find a used pair, but it's said to be less artificially bright. I prefer a flatter mic in the high end that comes across a little sweeter.

Just my 2c,
Tim

[mastac]

I have done successful piano recordings using two MXL V67s. Check this thread:

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...ight=V67+piano

I have a link on the first post of what I did with two MXL V67s also on a very bright Yamaha grand piano. The results came out nice. Take a listen. Good luck!

[jaba]

hello everyone, thanks for the replies!! I thought I'd post what they actually sounded like.

The "TziganeSample" is violin, piano. it's a 5'8 yamaha grand with the violin standing in 'traditional' position. The two mics were in 'spaced pair' more or less about 3 feet away from the violin and thus about 5 feet away from the piano. The MXL 67G was about 10 feet in the background. I used a Presonus interface and recorded to my laptop. I panned each 603 about 30%right and the other 30% left and just a bit of the 67G center. Also, I added a little reverb (all done with Adobe Audition 1.5).

The second sample, with vocalist was the same setting except that the male vocalist got the 67G to use.

My feel is that the whole thing is a little 'edgy' and 'digitalized' sounding. I really like the warmer sound of an 'itzhak perlman' recording on EMI. Mine sounds too 'sterile'.

Perhaps I should get a large diaphragm mic??

Thanks!

ViolinPiano Tzigane

ViolinPianoVocal WasBlue Sample

[mshilarious]

Yeah I think you need some work on mic position. The violin is excessively bright, but the piano sounds suppressed, not just in volume but severely in tone. The mic on the violin sounds too close. What is the position of the piano mic? Try the ORTF technique and see how that goes.

Hey! Look what I found, this might be informative:

http://www.music.vt.edu/curriculum/c...olio/trio.html

[mastac]

From my little experience, it seems like the edginess may be coming from a combination between the mic positioning and the room acoustics. In the second sample, for example, the vocal sounded like it was picking up some reverb feedback from somewhere in the room, probably making it sound a little edgy and digitized.

What are the acoustics like in your recording room and what is the room like, and what Presonus interface do you have?

By the way, whoever was playing that violin was definitely tearin it up. There's most def. skill there - I love a great violin player. Good music is always the first part of the recording chain !

Craig

[mastac]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Yeah I think you need some work on mic position. The violin is excessively bright, but the piano sounds suppressed, not just in volume but severely in tone. The mic on the violin sounds too close. What is the position of the piano mic? Try the ORTF technique and see how that goes.

Hey! Look what I found, this might be informative:

http://www.music.vt.edu/curriculum/c...olio/trio.html

I guess you beat me to it mshillarious! I'm not trying to vainly repeat what already said, just so you know.

[jaba]

Wow, I'm so so super impressed with all of this feedback! There must be something special about people who are into recording! Thanks again......

Now for the questions.....

1)Thank you Craig for the very kind compliments. I practice very hard and it's nice to hear a compliment. I'm the violinist in the recording and also the person who is trying to record. I have a rather bright sounding newish French Violin and hope to upgrade to a nice mellow/sweeter Italian, but I'm short about $300,000.

2)The room is a rectangular livingroom of our house. The floors are hardwood and about 80% covered with a thin/wool Persian Rug. The walls are your standard walls and there are french windows covering about half the side of the room. The room is moderately live, which I thought is good, but it's not like a good concert hall or even a church with hardwood or anything like that.

3)I'm using a Presonus Firepod. It's been fun to use and I'm happy with it. It has 6 XLR inputs each with what is supposed to be a high-end non-tube pre-amp in each. I also bought a single Art Tube Pre-amp, but I haven't tried it with the presonus yet.

4)The piano isn't mic'ed up close. Both mics are closer to the violin, in a line parallel to the far wall of the rectangular room. They were spaced about 4feet apart for those recordings. The vocalist was placed near the far wall of the room, so about 5-6 feet away from the two 603's and about 10-12 feet way from the violin and piano.

Thank you everyone once more and I appreciate further comments. I feel like I should be paying for this service!

Benjamin

[XLR]

My feel is that the whole thing is a little 'edgy' and 'digitalized' sounding. I really like the warmer sound of an 'itzhak perlman' recording on EMI. Mine sounds too 'sterile'.

Perhaps I should get a large diaphragm mic??

I listened to the first mp3. Nice, but the playing deserves better mic's. Suggest you consider testing (by renting) a pair of DPA, Schoeps, or Josephson small diaphram mic's and compare to what you've used so far. (BTW, diaphram size is unrelated to sound quality or "warmth") Just google for "pro audio rental". A rental service can ship mic's to you, so it doesn't have to be local. Worth the trouble to hear the difference. I think good mic's are worth it. Pair of Josephson C42's are well under a grand. Hell, that's less than a cheap big screen TV.

Regarding mic use, you might want to look at the DPA page on the subject.

Nice playing,
Tim

[mshilarious]

There's something I don't understand about your setup, 'cause I keep thinking like a piano trio, and I think maybe I'm wrong.

OK, take the attached images. Image A has the mics behind the pianist in ORTF (that crummy looking wide black "V" I drew). This is maybe not enough treble on the piano. Is that what you were doing?

Image B has the violin moved around the pianist, with the mics moved around to the treble side. This will give you a brighter tone on the piano.

Image C (pretend the cello is the vocalist) is worth a shot for the recordings with vocal without using the V67 as a spot mic. It will sound more natural, but the balance might not be right.

Also this isn't a plug, but this site has an excellent educational section--look for the "Microphone University" link:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/

[krs]

Nice playing, I just listened to the first one.

"My feel is that the whole thing is a little 'edgy' and 'digitalized' sounding. I really like the warmer sound of an 'itzhak perlman' recording on EMI. Mine sounds too 'sterile'."

Big part of his sound is his Strad (Le Soil 1714) arguably one of the best sounding violins ever made. So the issue for me here is not the mics, though agreed they are way too close.

Try having that fiddle adjusted. The g-string is lacking depth in a big way. If it is your standard Barzoni/Mirecourt red thing, than maybe there is not much you can do. It sounds like you might be using Dominant strings, if you are, there are definitely better options for that violin.

Change or fix the room. Slapping that big hall on there sounds very fake. I wan't clear how that was miked but being that close into focus lots of extraneous playing noise. Remember, what you hear under your ear is NOT what other people want to hear.

Anyway didn't want this to sound negative, but looks like I didn't succeed . I enjoyed listening to the clip.

[mastac]

I think that you can get a better recording with the mics you have - I think mic placement, room, and instrument tweaking will make more of a difference than better mics. Try the positioning that everyone here has mentioned, I think they should help some. See if you can get into another room (although that might be tough to get the piano out of there!) but something tells me that the hard wood floors may cause disruptive sound wave reflections if the room isn't big enough.

Also, I would also check for phase cancellation of the mics being panned at 30% on each side. I think there also may be some phase cancellation causing the violin to sound a lil tinny as it may be leaving behind some frequencies that would give it a little more natural sound. See what happens if you hard pan the two mics left and right to see if that helps the sound. If it does help the sound, then I guess you may want to move the mics around if you want to keep some mono compatibility. If you try the stereo mic positioning ideas that were mentioned, I would suggest you pan the mics more hard left and right and you wouldn't have to deal with phase cancellation problems as much as a spaced pair.

A final thing (as a more last, "just playin around cause I got some extra cash" resort) is trying to get another MXL V67, which does have quite a bit darker tone than the MXL 603. If you use that for the stereo pair, you will probably have a less bright mix. Still, I can't promise anything - and I ususally don't recommend buying much more than what is really necessary when people don't have to, since I sometimes mistakenly assume that people are as tight with cash as I am!

I really think you have what you need to get a good recording - or at least, a significantly better recording - just keep working at it! And keep it going with that violin - you do sound excellent most def!

I was thinking about coppin a Presonus Firepod to replace my M-Audio Firewire 410. I would like to get some more inputs and outputs than what I currently have, you know? All the best with this jaba.

Craig

[jaba]

Krs and Mshilarious,

I've tried to move around the images Mshilarious attached so they look like what I had done in the recordings. Please ignore all the artifacts, I have no idea how to really use an image editing program. The big black square in the bottom is where the vocalist was with his 67G mic.

As far as my instrument, Krs is perceptive. Yes, the G-string intrisically lacks in depth, though I do try to take responsibility personally for everything that comes out of the fiddle. It's a little better than your average Mirecourt 'red' fiddle, but not that much. I have Eva Pirazzis on now, with a larsen E-string. I may try Obliggatos. I mention this 'cause you may be a violinist.

Should I use a different preset for reverb?? There were a hundred to choose from and I just took nearly a stab in the dark. (adobe audition 1.5)

Thanks!

[XLR]

I panned each 603 about 30%right and the other 30% left and just a bit of the 67G center.

I missed that in the previous posting, Benjamin. If you're using the mic's as a spaced pair, or ORTF even, it tends to cause unpleasant phase problems if you mix them. Diminishes the stereo "soundstage" realism too. Good idea, as Mastac mentioned, to pan hard L and R.

How high was the ceiling in your recording room?

Tim

[krs]

I think Obbligato is a no-brainer for the next string to audition for that violin. Pirazzis are great, but on a bright fiddle they can sound like complete a$$ (not saying they do in your case of course )

Ditto on the ORTF pair, definitely. Get them back and try a little lower with them, even below chest height. Try and eliminate as many first reflections as you can ie put bookcases (filled with books) at oblique angles near walls that the mics might pick up. Put down a shag carpet, if you've got two, suspend one from the ceiling. This doesn't have to be very expensive to be effective.

For the hall setting - the less reflections you have in the recorded material, the easier it will be. Something that can work is not being overly ambitious with it, ie it was recorded in a living room, choose a large 'room' preset (ie not the church). Sometimes you can get the original sound to blend in nicely with the effect and it sounds more legit.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by jaba

Krs and Mshilarious,

I've tried to move around the images Mshilarious attached so they look like what I had done in the recordings. Please ignore all the artifacts, I have no idea how to really use an image editing program. The big black square in the bottom is where the vocalist was with his 67G mic.

OK now I understand. That explains it. The track is much hotter on the left channel because the violin is closer. The treble from the piano is suppressed because you're blocking it with your body. The right channel mic doesn't contribute all that much because it is farther. Notice when you play lower pitched passages the image moves right? Definitely, try diagram "b".

krs made good suggestions about mic placement.

The vocalist perplexes me a bit. The reverb on the vocal track doesn't work, it's too wet, and it seems (going against krs) a little short to me, for some reason I think a tune like this should sound like it's on stage. But I have poor taste in reverb, so don't listen to me Whatever you choose, bring the reverb up until you notice it, then turn it down a little.

Back to the vocalist, I think he could stand some proximity effect. So ignore what I said earlier, and use the V67 on him BUT get him with the ensemble in front of the ORTF pair, put the V67 close to him, and just add enough V67 in the mix to give him some meat.

[jaba]

Ceilings are about 8 ft tall. Does that make a difference? (not that I can do anything about it I guess)

Benjamin

[krs]

Originally Posted by jaba

Ceilings are about 8 ft tall. Does that make a difference? (not that I can do anything about it I guess)

Benjamin

reread my post...

[XLR]

Ceilings are about 8 ft tall. Does that make a difference? (not that I can do anything about it I guess)

Makes a big difference. If a low ceiling is treated with acoustic foam, or as KRS suggests, a rug, it'll cut down the HF reflections a bit to simulate a higher ceiling, but even that won't sound nearly as good as using a room with a much higher ceiling. Using hypercardioid mic's will also cut down room reflection problems a lot. I've got high ceiing in my current recording space, but in my old place with an 8' ceiling the hypercard's were the only thing that made the room useable for me.

Tim

[mshilarious]

If you can make a relatively simple modification to your room, on this page:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_studio.htm

Ethan Winer describes how to build a 'floating cloud' with acoustic ceiling tile and insulation. This is inexpensive and only about a weekend's worth of work, if that. It will make a big difference in your room, and can look attractive with some attention to detail. Be sure not to cover the entire ceiling, just the central portion over the piano.

[jaba]

Hello,

A couple of sales people I spoke with said that my #1 problem is that I shouldn't use condensor mics for violin/strings and that I should use Ribbon mics, such as AEA R84, Royer (ideally SF24), or for a tight budget, the Nady ribbon mic.

Any opinions or experiences?

thanks

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by jaba

Hello,

A couple of sales people I spoke with said that my #1 problem is that I shouldn't use condensor mics for violin/strings and that I should use Ribbon mics, such as AEA R84, Royer (ideally SF24), or for a tight budget, the Nady ribbon mic.

Any opinions or experiences?

thanks

Well, you know I almost suggested that earlier, but for two reasons:

1) I'm all for cheap solutions, and ribbons aren't cheap.

2) Sometimes salespeople will make recommendations without necessarily understanding the style of music. Many (all?) fiddle players prefer ribbons because they have that 'old time' sound you referred to in one of your earlier posts, but it doesn't follow that all classical violinists want the same sound. Some are going to prefer the more accurate sound of a good quality condenser mic, especially when a larger ensemble is involved.

So if you're in the market for new mics, then yes I'd compare the ribbons against a better pair of condensers, but be prepared to like either one (or both!)

In any event all of the mic techniques and room treatments discussed here are still applicable.

[mastac]

Originally Posted by jaba

Hello,

A couple of sales people I spoke with said that my #1 problem is that I shouldn't use condensor mics for violin/strings and that I should use Ribbon mics, such as AEA R84, Royer (ideally SF24), or for a tight budget, the Nady ribbon mic.

Any opinions or experiences?

thanks

I have read up in another forum:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...sg/4221/0/16/0
Many have said that ribbon mics are preferred in their recording of the violin due to the fact that it often adds a certain kind of coloration that is flattering to the violin sound. This coloration, however, can also be characteristic of various condensor mics. After reading a little bit of the one thread, many have said that using a mic that is not overly bright had brought the best results. The screeching and unpleasant high harshness can be caused by miking too close. Also, they have said to lower the height of the mic to reduce the harshness. I would guess that the MXL V67 would produce quite a bit better results given your problem than the MXL 603. The V67 is quite a bit darker, and the MXL 603 is known as a bright mic, which my attribute to the harshness of the recording.

Ribbon mics in general may be more flattering for violin recording, but I definitely wouldn't separate the ribbon mic sound vs. condensor sound as two completely different types of sound. There is way too much variety within condensor mics that I wouldn't make the kind of statement that those sales people have said. I believe Harvey Gerst mentioned in his review of the V67 that it was reminiscent of a ribbon mic in terms of its display of the proximity effect. Of course, that does't mean it will sound just like a ribbon mic at all, but it does help to show that there is a whole range of different types of condensor mics that can also give you a sound that is flattering to your violin.

If you can get a hold of a ribbon mic for cheap - then go for it (although I guess you would want to check around to see if the specific mic is decent enough period!). Just remember that condensor mics have many different sounds and perhaps you may find one that sounds just as good or better than a great ribbon mic for your particular application.

Also you may want to check this link to another thread which deals with recording piano and violin.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...00/0#msg_39100

Good luck!
Craig