Cheating?

[KeithCF]

I've been tracking drums, and found a great way to lock in on the beat and get precise fills. Maybe it's cheating a little, but the results so far sound great. What I do is -- track all the verses/beats 1st, leaving space for the fills. This lets me really concentrate and lock in on the groove, and not worry about any small timing issues that might come up after a fill and transitioning back to the verse.

Then I create another set of tracks, record again and lay down all the fills. Played back, you can't hear the difference, but the verses/beats are rock solid, and the fills more creative and relaxed.

Anyone else do this?

Keith

[Jon D'oh]

I guess you can consider it normal in today's audio-editing routine... I'd never do that, however. I'd never quantize or physically alter my parts afterwards digitally. If I couldn't play it right, I would play something different. To me, "soul" in music is represented by the way one person plays his instrument, be it good or bad. And soul is essential, in my humble opinion.

[trenttati]

Cheating? Is there any such thing any more?

I'm a drummer first, and prefer to play straight through a track until I have a take I like. For the songs I write and play all the parts for, this usually means playing along for a month or more until I can rip through the track and listen back thinking, "did I really play that?"

But, I do occassionally add in a tighter crash hit, a single snare stroke, etc. when the track was otherwise perfect.

For other people's songs, when I have to get out of the engineer's seat and into the drummer's throne I play the track no more than three times and if they aren't content I ask them to find a better drummer.

Maybe i should qualify that I'm a jazz trained drummer playing a lot of fusion and hybrid grooves now.

What it all comes down to for me is whether everyone is going to be happy with the recording once the process of making it has faded from memory. If you want to use a studio-only method to get a tight sounding drum track(s), make sure you're going to be stoked on the end result down the road. Hey, or you could practice until coming out of fills puts you in the groove even tighter!

[vangore]

thats the exact answer i would have given Trenttati and also welcome to the forums

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by trenttati

Cheating? Is there any such thing any more?
What it all comes down to for me is whether everyone is going to be happy with the recording once the process of making it has faded from memory. If you want to use a studio-only method to get a tight sounding drum track(s), make sure you're going to be stoked on the end result down the road. Hey, or you could practice until coming out of fills puts you in the groove even tighter!

I hear that -- for me, if I can play it live like I did in the studio I'm happy. I should add that I've only used this approach on one song, a very slow heavy one where there's lots of space. It worked well. Other songs (esp. faster ones) I'll play straight thru until it's as tight as it needs to be. It's strange that my skill level seems to drop about 25% as soon as the red light goes on Totally different from playing live.

Keith

[trenttati]

Thanks vangore for the welcome! I owe everybody here pretty much everthing I know about recording...

As far as losing 25% of drum skills when the red light goes on...I sit pretty with two thoughts: 1) Undo works, redo works too. 2) I imagine I'm playing for an audience much like I would be doing live.

Well, if you aren't paying for the studio time, being nervous only makes you play worse. If you're not ready to play a track without being nervous, please don't pay for the studio time (the engineers/producers will not be happy with you and it will be reflected in the final product).

If using two takes to get separate grooves and fills keeps you from feeling nervous or like your losing some of your skills, then go for it. I would rather hear a solid groove on a recording than feeling the whole time like the track is going to end in a sudden and messy train wreck.

[VWYF11]

I struggled with this same dilemma before. The way I figure is that everything else now is autotuned or quantized anyway so as long as you want that perfect effect to a recording its allright. I personally like the whole idea of things sounding perfect even mechanical at times. I like the effect you get when the bass hits dead on with the bass drum, throughout a whole song. I think its a matter of taste.

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by VWYF11

I struggled with this same dilemma before. The way I figure is that everything else now is autotuned or quantized anyway so as long as you want that perfect effect to a recording its allright. I personally like the whole idea of things sounding perfect even mechanical at times. I like the effect you get when the bass hits dead on with the bass drum, throughout a whole song. I think its a matter of taste.

Keep in mind the idea was to do beats and fills on separate passes -- not quantize your parts. Not sure how I feel about the quantizing issue -- like you said, seems like so many recordings are either looped or quantized these days. If that's the genre you are recording for, the bar has been raised pretty high in terms of playing perfectly. We are due for a major shakeout in popular music -- I think rap especially is gonna die hard and fast. Can't wait for the new stuff -- whatever it is!

Keith

[mikeh]

Since I'm an old dinosaur who came up in the days when editing meant splicing tape (which nobody liked to do if it could be avoided) I tend to play it live and if I can't nail it after 5 or 6 tries, I'll move on to something else.

When I work on my own stuff and I'm playing all the parts (drums, guitars, keys, vocals, etc) this can be time consuming and on occasion mind numbingly redundant - but I'd rather take satisfaction in hitting my part rather than "cheating".

However, I must admit there are times where my drums tracked well except for a stay kick beat or a slopping cymbal hit - in which case I may go in and edit a note here and there.

If I'm working on someone elses project (either as a session player or as an engineer/producer) then I will edit if it makes the session goes better - as long as it does not significantly compromise the feel of the tune.

My view changes depending on the side of the glass I'm sitting - as a musician I frown on "cheating", as an engineer I consider any tool to be valid and as a producer I will do whatever is best for the song/client.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by KeithCF

-- I think rap especially is gonna die hard and fast. Keith

People have been thinking that for 20 years. It won't happen.

As far as playing fills at a later time than the groove, if it works, do it. The idea is to make a song someone wants to listen to. How that gets done is not that important. There are a lot of secret things that have happened in recording studios in an effort to get the performance that was needed to sell the album. None of it is cheating.

[coloradojay]

I read an interview with Stewart Copeland once where he was talking about some hihat parts that he overdubbed in the studio. He said that some clinician-type drummer came up to him all proud once saying "I finally after years of working on it got that hihat lick down on X song" (I'm thinking it was walking on the moon where he does the sick triplets on the hats along with a cross-stick rim click), which totally blew his mind since even *he himself* hadn't played it all at once.

My first takeaway from that story is that you can do anything you want in the studio, that's the studio magic and even some of the great drummers have, so it's not cheating. Stewart is still the man.

Moral #2. If you practice really hard, you won't have to use the tricks.

Zoro told a very similar story at a clinic I went to, except he was on the other side of this coin. He got a chance to meet some old Soul or Funk drummer that he had studied and idolized. There was a particular lick that he had labored many hours/years to try to play, and still couldn't figure out what the trick to it was (and Z has some incredible chops to begin with). So he goes up to the guy, gives him props and says "hey, I've gotten this close to playing that lick, [procedes to wrap out super-human lick] and I was wondering if you'd share the secret to how you played it on that track". So the guy replies laughs at him and says "Z you'll never play that lick". And he's like huh? So old dude basically tells him (to paraphrase) "there where three of us drumming on that track, one guy on hihats, one on snare and one on a bass drum with mallets. But what you just showed me is amazingly close". A lot of the stuff that Zoro has mastered playing has been stuff that was from drum machine sequences or in this case 3 drummers, but it caused him to strive to a whole new level of drumming to be able to perform it live.

That is a whole other level of mastery. So really from that I'd say take those tracks that feel right, and make that feel the goal of your practice so that you can rock it live. The studio cut is a compositional phase, now that you've got the reference feel, build the chops.

-J

[coloradojay]

One other thought is that a real drummer could probably pick out the fact that the groove was continuous through the fill (and would require more than two arms). I've heard guys ask in mix forums "does this sound like something a real drummer could play" because they wanted their sequence to sound real, and not super-human-machine-like.

So are you swapping the fill track for the straight groove in those sections, or just playing over it? I'd be curious to here a clip.

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by coloradojay

One other thought is that a real drummer could probably pick out the fact that the groove was continuous through the fill (and would require more than two arms). I've heard guys ask in mix forums "does this sound like something a real drummer could play" because they wanted their sequence to sound real, and not super-human-machine-like.

So are you swapping the fill track for the straight groove in those sections, or just playing over it? I'd be curious to here a clip.

On the song where I did the 2-pass recording approach, I left space for the fill, then went back later and recorded the fills. It's totally seamless. It wasn't too tough cause the tempo was a slow one. Would be much harder to do on a fast track. I'll upload a clip for you to listen to.

I have been playing set and percussion since junior high (close to 30 years now -- damn!) -- and have fairly decent chops. Not as good as when I was playing live every weekend when I was in my 20's and 30's, but since I've been recording with a buddy I am playing a lot more, and getting more of my chops back.

I always try to stretch myself when I record, and lay down something I can be proud of listening to later. There are those tough fills (for me anyway!) -- like the fast snare/tom/kick triplets a la ZZ Top on "Tush" -- that take a bunch of takes to get really precise. On this song, I got to the point where I played the lick like 100 times to get it tight, then punched it in. Not as legit as playing it perfectly on a song I recorded all the way through, but I played it, and it sounds tight. In the meantime, I keep playing and practicing and challenging myself.

Keith

[johnnyfever]

Originally Posted by coloradojay

I read an interview with Stewart Copeland once where he was talking about some hihat parts that he overdubbed in the studio. He said that some clinician-type drummer came up to him all proud once saying "I finally after years of working on it got that hihat lick down on X song" (I'm thinking it was walking on the moon where he does the sick triplets on the hats along with a cross-stick rim click), which totally blew his mind since even *he himself* hadn't played it all at once.

My first takeaway from that story is that you can do anything you want in the studio, that's the studio magic and even some of the great drummers have, so it's not cheating. Stewart is still the man.

Moral #2. If you practice really hard, you won't have to use the tricks.

Zoro told a very similar story at a clinic I went to, except he was on the other side of this coin. He got a chance to meet some old Soul or Funk drummer that he had studied and idolized. There was a particular lick that he had labored many hours/years to try to play, and still couldn't figure out what the trick to it was (and Z has some incredible chops to begin with). So he goes up to the guy, gives him props and says "hey, I've gotten this close to playing that lick, [procedes to wrap out super-human lick] and I was wondering if you'd share the secret to how you played it on that track". So the guy replies laughs at him and says "Z you'll never play that lick". And he's like huh? So old dude basically tells him (to paraphrase) "there where three of us drumming on that track, one guy on hihats, one on snare and one on a bass drum with mallets. But what you just showed me is amazingly close". A lot of the stuff that Zoro has mastered playing has been stuff that was from drum machine sequences or in this case 3 drummers, but it caused him to strive to a whole new level of drumming to be able to perform it live.

That is a whole other level of mastery. So really from that I'd say take those tracks that feel right, and make that feel the goal of your practice so that you can rock it live. The studio cut is a compositional phase, now that you've got the reference feel, build the chops.

-J

Regarding "Walking On The Moon" by The Police: I watched Stewart Copeland do this tune live many times back in 1979/1980. He ran his Hi-Hat microphone through an Echoplex unit. These were quite popular back in the day. Basically it allowed him to play it almost exactly like the record by electronically repeating the hi-hat groove.

Regarding the original post. I personally record the whole track all at once. Yes it may take me a few takes, but that is the way to do it. If you can't play the whole thing at one sitting, then you probably are not that good. I don't mean to cut down anyone by saying this but recording great drum tracks is what separates the men from the boys. Practice, practice and more practice! It takes many years to master these skills but they are obtainable if you are willing to put the time in.

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by johnnyfever

Regarding "Walking On The Moon" by The Police: I watched Stewart Copeland do this tune live many times back in 1979/1980. He ran his Hi-Hat microphone through an Echoplex unit. These were quite popular back in the day. Basically it allowed him to play it almost exactly like the record by electronically repeating the hi-hat groove.

Regarding the original post. I personally record the whole track all at once. Yes it may take me a few takes, but that is the way to do it. If you can't play the whole thing at one sitting, then you probably are not that good. I don't mean to cut down anyone by saying this but recording great drum tracks is what separates the men from the boys. Practice, practice and more practice! It takes many years to master these skills but they are obtainable if you are willing to put the time in.

Here's food for thought -- is it more "OK" for guitar/bass/keyboard players -- really anyone except drummers -- to punch in their parts? I don't mean leads or other overdubs, but areas that need tightening up in a song. Is there a different standard for drummers? Johnny -- would you make your same comment about playing in one sitting or you're not that good to guitar or bass players? (I am not looking to defend the technique of punching in drums, just raising a question

Keith

[johnnyfever]

Originally Posted by KeithCF

Here's food for thought -- is it more "OK" for guitar/bass/keyboard players -- really anyone except drummers -- to punch in their parts? I don't mean leads or other overdubs, but areas that need tightening up in a song. Is there a different standard for drummers? Johnny -- would you make your same comment about playing in one sitting or you're not that good to guitar or bass players? (I am not looking to defend the technique of punching in drums, just raising a question

Keith

Hi Keith,

I really don't like the idea of anyone punching in their parts. I guess I'm "old school" but if you learn your part well, you should have no problem. If someone is doing a lead or an overdub, that I can understand. I have had the great fortune of working with some extremely talented musicians over the years and it's really about learning your part. Obviously some people are more talented than others. I am not the most technical drummer in the world but I do have an incredible sense of meter. Some of that is a gift and the other part involves years and years of practice, practice and more practice. Please understand that I am not boasting, just stating the facts. I've been doing this stuff for almost 35 years. To me, you have to be able to play a decent track without having to "fix" it. Donald Fagen will tell you the same thing.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by johnnyfever

Hi Keith,

I really don't like the idea of anyone punching in their parts. I guess I'm "old school" but if you learn your part well, you should have no problem. If someone is doing a lead or an overdub, that I can understand. I have had the great fortune of working with some extremely talented musicians over the years and it's really about learning your part. Obviously some people are more talented than others. I am not the most technical drummer in the world but I do have an incredible sense of meter. Some of that is a gift and the other part involves years and years of practice, practice and more practice. Please understand that I am not boasting, just stating the facts. I've been doing this stuff for almost 35 years. To me, you have to be able to play a decent track without having to "fix" it. Donald Fagen will tell you the same thing.

You are also assuming that the song isn't being writen on the spot. If you are a band and have written and arranged the songs in advance, and the producer hasn't completely changed it at the last minute, I agree with you. If the song is being reworked as you are recording, it really isn't about practice.

[johnnyfever]

Jason,

It still is about practice (as in how much of your life have you devoted to your instrument) but also about how good or bad the musician is. Crappy players can not make "magic" on the fly. Recording music as you are writing it is always a costly endeavor. I really don't think too many of today's successful recording artists are doing it that way. Preparation is always the key to a great recording.

[Farview]

It depends on what genre of music you are talking about. Some styles of music are more 'organic' than others. I am constantly dealing with projects where the 'band' comes in with a few riffs and they proceed to arrange the song on the spot. I also deal with a lot of colabarative projects where a couple of guys will fly in, come up with something on the spot, and have to have it done in time to catch the plane back home. These are top notch people (i.e. Rod Morgenstein) and they ask to punch things in. In his case, it was an 8 minute tune (that he had never heard before that afternoon) that he planned to go nuts on at the end. He played the whole song and did some really cool stuff at the end, but he wasn't happy with it. So, we punched it in. I was not going to make him record the whole thing over again, that is just silly. It has nothing to do with his ability. It has nothing to do with him needing more practice. He is not a 'crappy' player.
In a world where everything needs to be perfect, it is less time consuming (read 'more cost effective') to piece things together than it is to wait for even the best of drummers to pull it together.

[Drummerbones]

There's a fine line here. If you are punching in a bunch of times on a song because you can't play, that's one thing....but who's to say the guy that can't play very well shouldn't cheat? He's entitled to make music like everyone else! On the other hand, no matter how good you are, humans make errors. The very best in the business can rarely get a "perfect take" from start to end (debate this all you want). Timing issues with overdubbing, slight tuning issues with the bend of a string...hey, mistakes (or not quite perfect enough takes) happen. Back in the 70's, a little human inperfection gave songs character and were acceptable....listen to Zepplin. Today, however, if I can detect even a slight error on a major label project, I'm usually floored. Editing and punching is a way of life because listeners today expect perfection. I am a drummer first and foremost and I record solo most of the time. I don't think I have, and probably never will, punched in a drum take. I could do it using an auto-punch function, but I don't. I record every drum part in one take. If I screw up, I do it again. Now if it's something really minor, I'll go back and fix it via editing (a weak snare hit or whatever). I've learned to do this out of necessity mostly. Now I'm also a guitar player, bass player, pianist & vocalist. On all of these, I punch in and/or use editing. Why? I'm not good enough to nail my takes. I don't have the time or patience at my age to master 900 instruments. One was enough. Does that mean I shouldn't make music? I didn't think so.

[mikeh]

I think we may be talking more than one level.

I agree with JohnnyFever, that a good musician who has mastered his instrument (do we ever really master our instruments) should be able to hit the groove in a limited number of trys - if he can't he should not be in the studio. However, that primarily would apply to a session player or a member of a band who is paying for studio time.

As a paid session player (which I don't do as much as I use to - there's always someone better who can come along and take the gig) I know it is my job to hit it quickly, since the clock is ticking. In fact I have actually been replaced on a couple of sessions because I could not make it happen fast enough - and I've also had parts that I recorded replaced after I left because it was not "good enough").

As a producer, it is my job to make the session happen while working within some type of budget and if a player is not getting it done, I have to talk to the client and make a hard call (I have asked to get different players in)

As an engineer, I'll do whatever I'm asked, but if I think someone is not getting it done, I will try to find a polite way to suggest something different (including an edit or a cut & paste)

As a home recorder, I'm free to do whatever I want - if that includes what KeithCF suggested, so be it (although on a personal level I would prefer to play the part - that is why I've spent close to 40 years improving my drumming chops).

I agree with JohnnyFever that most major sessions are not done on the fly - the producer (and the label) will insist on plenty of pre-production to limit the costs of studio time.

I suspect that the projects Fairview is mentioning are indeed more along the lines of pre-production. It is not uncommon for name artists to go into a less costly studio where they can work through some ideas - however, the clock is still ticking and even then the artists have to know when to stop trying and/or when to punch in or edit.

As was stated, if you want the best sounding recording, you will use whatever you can (musical skill, technical skill, computer skill). However, as a musician, we should all strive to be good enough to get the groove on tape without "cheating" (but as I've indicated, I've had a couple of producers who did not think I was good enough - thankfully most thought I was).

[Farview]

Originally Posted by mikeh

I suspect that the projects Fairview is mentioning are indeed more along the lines of pre-production. It is not uncommon for name artists to go into a less costly studio where they can work through some ideas - however, the clock is still ticking and even then the artists have to know when to stop trying and/or when to punch in or edit.

The specific story that I told was not pre production. Those tracks made it to the album, as they were meant to. There would be no point to flying the drummer out to do pre production, then have to fly him back out again once he has had a chance to practice.

For whatever reason, I get a lot of projects where musicians are just getting together to see what happens. There is a time limit because most of these guys are showing up as they are in town in the middle of a tour. This is mostly 'musician music' and doesn't sell a lot of records, but the guys who are doing this are monsters.

When I had Tac-Head here, the drummer would lay down a groove, then the producer would come up with a different idea for the hi hat, we would just layer that on. Then there was a tom part that was layered over that.
This was being created right there as we were recording it. That is the way that band works. All of these guys can play.

[mikeh]

Fairview:

It sound like you are working on some interesting projects with some A list players. As you indicate, it can be more cost effective to punch in & edit, in particular if you are recording people like Morgenstein, who I suspect must get double or triple scale.

Since I came up in the 60's and have seen the studio scene change from the the "record the album" in 2 days" attitude of the 60's (back when the whole band actually recorded at the same time) thru the "record the album in 2 years" attitude of the 80's - and have seen my share of the "edit every note" attitude of the last decade - I have observed the pros & cons of each method (from both sides of the glass).

While I agree that the demand for perfect sounding recordings does dictate edits, pitch corrections, etc. etc. - I suspect we can all agree that there is something special and extremely satisfying (for musicians, producers and engineers) to have a group of musician's lay down a great groove when the red light goes on and then sit in the control room an all agree "that's a take"!!

[Farview]

That would be cool. I remember having to do that myself when I had no budget and computers were something that only existed in the Bat Cave.
I do have projects that come in with a well rehearsed band that doesn't require editing, it just doesn't seem to be the norm.
I have a friend and client who is a Yngwie-type guitar player. When we are recording his solos, sometimes he will play it over the neck. The fact that he can play all these super-fast arpegios overhanded is pretty incredible but, no one listening to the CD will ever know that he played it that way. Does it make the solo more kick ass that he did that? If you were watching him, maybe. Does anyone listening to the CD care? No.
You get payed the same amount of money no matter how you do it. You get paid for getting it done, how it gets done is of little importance.