How to record Bagpipes and Drums?

[Cruizer]

Reciently the "Irish Heritage Pipe Band of Ohio" (I'm drum major)) expressed intrest in making an album. How would you think would be the best way to "capture" the bagpipes... as well as the double-snares and the bass drum?

http://www.ihpipeband.com/our_story1.htm

[Elmo89m]

How many bagpipes?.....mic the drums with drum mics...isolated from the pipes obviously

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Elmo89m

How many bagpipes?.....mic the drums with drum mics...isolated from the pipes obviously

You've got 8 drummers and a dozen pipers? No I don't think you want a bunch of close mics. Rent a large studio room, concert hall, or decent auditorium, and use standard orchestral techniques.

[Cruizer]

awesome.. thanks for the input, we have access to several nice halls for this purpose. I'm still cutting my teeth w/ recording as a whole.. seems like this is a challenge that will be alot of fun.

keep the input comming! my notepad is out and ready

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Cruizer

awesome.. thanks for the input, we have access to several nice halls for this purpose.

That's good. Anyway, start with figuring out your layout. I'm guessing you usually do parade-type performances? If so, you'll have to figure out how to set yourself on stage. If you know that, great, if not, do you know other pipe bands you can ask for advice?

OK, recording basics: orchestral recording starts with a pair of mics (see here, under microphone university/stereo techniques: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/) a little behind the conductor's position. Mics can be added further back in the hall to capture reverbations, and sometimes spot mics are used for certain instruments. If you want a good snare crack, for example, that might be worth considering.

But you've got to start with a good sound in that stereo pair. Look for the best pair of small diaphragm condensers you can afford. With pipes having such rich overtones, I would be wary of bright-sounding mics. I would be looking for neutral, detailed reproduction.

That, into a decent two-channel pre, into the recorder of your choice, should get you going.

[Cruizer]

great! Thanx mshilarious for the heads up, i'm meeting w/ the pipe major this week to get the ball rolling. I was thinking perhaps recording the pipes and drums seperately...(i.e. different times) would this be a good idea?
or just stick to the "record the whole thing live" format.
i've heard so many Pipe & Drum Cd's that lack definition between the drums and the pipes (i.e. overtones from the snares walking all over the pipes and vice versa) just trying to avoid that happening.
here are some links i've found while researching...

http://www.homerecordingconnection.c...&id=2512&frm=1

http://forums.minidisc.org/lofiversi...php/t7247.html

[Cruizer]

Here's exactly what I'm avoiding.. and go figure its the 48th Highlanders'
one of the best pipe bands in N. America
here is what some said in the reviews from Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=music


{Good selection, unimpressive recording quality
As a beginning student of bagpipes I find the large selection of songs helpful, but the quality of the recording seems flat. I've tried turning the volume way up, but then it sounds "tinny" or "sharp" (the volume is lower than for most CDs). And for those who play, the "throws" and similar embellishments are not well articulated...the band plays quite fast. }


Avoid at all costs - terrible sound quality
The sound of pipes is supposed to stir the soul - not on this CD. This disc is an example of everything that can not be achieved by recording out of doors. The tones are indistinguishable - flat, flat, flat and the side drums often overwhelm the pipes.
Put it simply - the recorded rendition of Amazing Grace, always a highlight of a pipes recording, is more boring than a lullabye, and Scotland the Brave is about as thrilling as the Teacup Ride at Disneyworld.
Don't waste your money.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Cruizer

I was thinking perhaps recording the pipes and drums seperately...(i.e. different times) would this be a good idea?
or just stick to the "record the whole thing live" format.
i've heard so many Pipe & Drum Cd's that lack definition between the drums and the pipes (i.e. overtones from the snares walking all over the pipes and vice versa) just trying to avoid that happening.

I think that goes to your stage setup. Recording halves of a large ensemble separately would be unusual. A few more comments:

- That first link talked mainly about recording a single set of pipes. I don't think they really went far enough out--pipes have a huge sound, and two feet out ain't gonna do. I think I'd start with six feet for a single set pipes, and further for the ensemble, maybe 12 feet, maybe more. Walk around and use your ears to find the sweet spot.

- Still, that's only a single set of pipes. You aren't recording twelve sets of pipes and eight drums (or whatever), you are recording a band. You use between two and maybe five mics to do this, not twenty. The more mics you add, the less likely you are to succeed.

- The reason other recordings might have muddy drums: this probably has a lot to do with the room, and second the recording techniques. I don't believe the solution is tracking them separately, the solution is getting a good sound at the right place in a good room.

- Earlier I said I thought you might need a spot on the snare, and here's why: drums are usually placed to the rear of an ensemble. That's because they are loud, and by moving them further back, it makes them quieter to the audience. However, as they are further away, that means they are delayed in reaching the audience with respect to the rest of the ensemble. That's OK, our ears expect that, it matches what our eyes see. But in a bad hall, it means that the reverbations arrive very close to the attack, which makes an acoustic mess. But that isn't particular to recording: if it sounds bad live, it'll sound bad recorded.

- Now, back to recording: if you use a spot mic on drums, then you get a clear attack, but it will lead the attack in your stereo pair. That might be the sound you hear when drums walk all over the pipes: poor application of close mics. The solution is to delay the spot mic in phase with the stereo pair, and only blend in enough as is necessary to get that attack without overwhelming everything else.

- That minidisc link, I dunno, sounded like they were having problems with a compressed format. I don't do minidisc, but the moral of the story: don't record to compressed formats.

[tmix]

Originally Posted by Cruizer

How would you think would be the best way to "capture" the bagpipes... as well as the double-snares and the bass drum?

http://www.ihpipeband.com/our_story1.htm

From a distance... preferably wih earplugs!

seriously, I play a LOT of Irish and Scottish festivals and the best recordings has been finding some place outside but next to a building, or in an alcove such as near some bleachers at a High School Football stadium where the reflected sound can be managed but not be trapped like a gym.

I would set up the pipes at the furthest from the mics with a reflective wall behind them and set up the drums a distance from them also with a reflective surface behind. Recording them as 2 sections.


Good Luck.

Tom
www.brothers3.us

[Cruizer]

awesome! makes perfect sense... practice is Thurs. night... I will do a lil investigating on sweet spots in our hall, and get ready to tackle this thing.
I will post more as i find out...


Thank you! mshilarious

[Cruizer]

tmix:

hey thanx for the input, i may combine several different techniques throughout the whole CD.. some songs may be soloists and or drum salutes.. that could be captured in different ways... just as long as it isn't sounding like shyte.. i'm all for it

[DYBE]

I have finished an amazing test-run involving bagpipes and a drum-line.
Yes, if your resources/equipment is limited... then doing it all at at once in a large room or hall is great place. Especially if you have few mics.

Today we tracked them individually. We used...

2 sets of pipes
1 full size bass drum
1 tenor drum
1 snare

For the full package, we will be grouping the snares and tenors together.

This is not done in a large room, but in a very well built 14' x 5' vocal booth.
3 People maximum simultaneously.

I may have set the bar on recording pipe bands for the rest of the world.
The results from the bass drum are the best to date. These pipers expressed this. No I do not rely on a subwoofer to cheat. 6" and 8" studio monitors.

Microphones used in total....

Audix D6, Audix D4, Audix I-5, Rode NT-1A, Audio Technica 4033, SM57

For recording the pipes, i ran the Rode and the AT all the way to the ceiling (6" from the top) at each end of the booth. The Audix D4 is a well compressed mic made specifically for Floor Toms. This was placed 12" from where the high-end/shrill comes from. The drones were picked up well from the ceiling mics. They were well balanced.

These pipers not only were blown away, but are providing me with everything that they have on cd to show me that what I did today was revolutionary.

The 14' x 5' booth acted as an enclosure for the bass drum.
When struck, the bass rattled your ear drums and brain.
You could feel the warmth of the (B flat i believe?)
Pipes are new to me, as was this challenge.

I am proud of my Audio Engineer and myself today.

If you have any questions, I can help.

[Seafroggys]

He probably doesn't have any questions, seeing as how the last response to this is almost 4 years old.

[DYBE]

i did not post that for you. find something better to do.

find an activity that benefits you or someone else.


do you know the saying?... "if you dont have something nice to say"


this website is designed to help people with questions.

you fall into the category of a "bad person" or an "annoyance"

take your negativity elsewhere.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by DYBE

i did not post that for you. find something better to do.

find an activity that benefits you or someone else.


do you know the saying?... "if you dont have something nice to say"


this website is designed to help people with questions.

you fall into the category of a "bad person" or an "annoyance"

take your negativity elsewhere.

Relax, idiot. He was just letting you know that you were responding to a 4 year old thread, in case you didn't know.

You're the only one being negative....and rather exessively, I might add.

Go change your diapers and come back when you grow up.

[Talldog]

+1 to Rami. If your going to use this board you'll need a thicker skin than that. When you respond to an old post someone will always let you know in case you didn't notice.

[DYBE]

i posted helpful information

a lot of the shit on here is verbal garbage

it just fills the message boards up with posts that are pointless and not helpful


i've decided this website isnt for me, its designed for fuck-bags with nothing better to do.

fuck bags

i cant figure out how to delete my account

maybe you fuck bags can help me

fuck bags

[Talldog]

A proud fuck bag (should that be capitalized?) bids you good bye and good luck.

[true-eurt]

DYBE...Seafroggys response was not rude in anyway and you immediately became defensive...and the response you received from RAMI..AFTER..your angry response to Seafroggys non-rude post, was brought on by YOUR angry response...so no...I won't address him for the post!!! He was no ruder than you. IF you can show me otherwise, I will THEN, address him for his rudeness.

I know that raising an old thread is annoying to some of the members here, but not the worst thing that can happen either.

However, you would most likely receive a quicker and better response by creating a NEW thread referencing to the older one.

This is an great place to give and take of musical knowledge...whether you be on the engineering side or artist side or both. I hope you can find a niche' for yourself around here.

Have a great day!

Originally Posted by Seafroggys

He probably doesn't have any questions, seeing as how the last response to this is almost 4 years old.

Originally Posted by DYBE

i did not post that for you. find something better to do.

find an activity that benefits you or someone else.


do you know the saying?... "if you dont have something nice to say"


this website is designed to help people with questions.

you fall into the category of a "bad person" or an "annoyance"

take your negativity elsewhere.

OOOPS....while I am typing and waiting for my SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOW PC to post, Y'all have been getting wild on me!

[true-eurt]

You are just instigating more crap yourself. Calling them all fuck bags for no rational reason, shows your inability to rationalize in thought process. You obviously need to chill.

Originally Posted by DYBE

i posted helpful information

a lot of the shit on here is verbal garbage

it just fills the message boards up with posts that are pointless and not helpful


i've decided this website isnt for me, its designed for fuck-bags with nothing better to do.

fuck bags

i cant figure out how to delete my account

maybe you fuck bags can help me

fuck bags

[RAMI]

How much is a fuck bag??? And, more importantly, does it work?????

[snellular5]

but the real problem comes when trying to mic one of these "fuck bags"

[RAMI]

I like to be on the bottom (why should I do all the work???).

So, before going out and purchasing a fuck bag, I need to know if I can assume this position successfully, or if I'm required place the fuck bag on a stable surface while I mount it.

[jasonbmerrill]

Originally Posted by Seafroggys

He probably doesn't have any questions, seeing as how the last response to this is almost 4 years old.

this post implies a uselessness to the previous poster. although his reaction was unnessecary, any attempts to try and say "oh, i was just informing you it was an old post" are weak. Im sure the poster saw the age of the post, and even if he didnt, im sure he did a search out of interest in the subject to spread his knowledge.

[true-eurt]

Once again..Seafroggys did NOTHING wrong in his repy...NOTHING..NO implementation of uselessness of the poster..none..only what someone on the defensive or chip on their shoulder would read into it...and DYBE immediately responded on the defensive with RUDENESS uncalled for. The whole attitude thing began with DYBE...period.

He could have chosen to respond with something like...*yah, I figured so much, but I revived the thread because (insert reason).*





So how about everyone NOW letting the dust settle? Thanks.