M-S Stereo recording for Drums

[mcolling]

M-S in in theory a very elegant technique. Is it ever used for drums? Everyone seems to use X-Y or two separate mics for stereo OHs, but wouldn't M-S be good also?

[Light]

I have used MS as both overheads and as an out in front of the kit stereo pair. Works fine. It is certainly a very elegant solution, but the primary legitimate reasons to use MS are;

1) (And this is the most important one) it has perfect compatibility with mono playback. In mono, the sides mic simply disappears, and you are left with just the mid mic. This is very important if your work will be heard in a mono format, such as AM radio. The thing is, there are far fewer mono formats these days, so I don't find this to be an issue for myself.

2) MS allows you to adjust the "width" of your stereo image during mixdown. The louder the mid mic, the narrower the image. This only works, of course, if you either record all three tracks, or it you record the raw mic output, and then "decode" it on mix down. Either way, I don't really like it for this purpose anyway, simply because MS NEVER gives you a stereo image I like.

MS only gives you half the locating image, volume. Our brains interpret sound location (stereo) information on the basis of two things, volume and time. MS and XY only give you volume information, and the VAST majority of how we hear location is based on TIME. I have done posts on here about something called delay panning, also called the Haas Effect. With delay panning, you can distinguish hundreds of time more stereo positions than with level panning. It is similar with stereo micing. You can get a much wider and more complex (and to my mind pleasing) stereo image by using even just an ORTF than you ever could with XY or MS. And Spaced Pairs are even better. My personal favorite is actually the Decca Tree. I have used that on jazz drummers, and both I and they have always been ecstatic with the results. Just that, and MAYBE a kick mic, and it just sounds like THIER drum kit. Try doing that with close micing. It will fail every time.

To be honest, I think that most of the times people use MS, it is NOT because of the sound, or the mono compatibility, or the width adjustment. Most of the time people use MS BECAUSE it is an elegant solution, which is to say, they use it to show off that they know how. That is NEVER a good excuse to do something. At least, not if you main concern is the final product.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[kid klash]

I use M-S on drums because I like the way it sounds. Sure, it looks cool too, but to me, the drum sound can be much bigger-sounding because you wind up with a nice dose of room sound. It sounds more realistic to me too. My M-S setup is an M-Audio Octane (it has an M-S encoder built into channels 7 & 8, with a variable width control), A Studio Projects B1 as the Unidirectional mic, a Studio Projects B3 as the figure eight mic, which then goes directly through the lightpipe output into two tracks on one of my ADAT recorders. I mic up the kick and snare on separate tracks on the Octane, which also go through the lightpipe, and I'm good to go. No muss, no fuss, no phase problems, killer drum tracks.

[PapillonIrl]

Originally Posted by Light

I have used MS as both overheads and as an out in front of the kit stereo pair. Works fine. It is certainly a very elegant solution, but the primary legitimate reasons to use MS are;

1) (And this is the most important one) it has perfect compatibility with mono playback. In mono, the sides mic simply disappears, and you are left with just the mid mic. This is very important if your work will be heard in a mono format, such as AM radio. The thing is, there are far fewer mono formats these days, so I don't find this to be an issue for myself.

2) MS allows you to adjust the "width" of your stereo image during mixdown. The louder the mid mic, the narrower the image. This only works, of course, if you either record all three tracks, or it you record the raw mic output, and then "decode" it on mix down. Either way, I don't really like it for this purpose anyway, simply because MS NEVER gives you a stereo image I like.

MS only gives you half the locating image, volume. Our brains interpret sound location (stereo) information on the basis of two things, volume and time. MS and XY only give you volume information, and the VAST majority of how we hear location is based on TIME. I have done posts on here about something called delay panning, also called the Haas Effect. With delay panning, you can distinguish hundreds of time more stereo positions than with level panning. It is similar with stereo micing. You can get a much wider and more complex (and to my mind pleasing) stereo image by using even just an ORTF than you ever could with XY or MS. And Spaced Pairs are even better. My personal favorite is actually the Decca Tree. I have used that on jazz drummers, and both I and they have always been ecstatic with the results. Just that, and MAYBE a kick mic, and it just sounds like THIER drum kit. Try doing that with close micing. It will fail every time.

To be honest, I think that most of the times people use MS, it is NOT because of the sound, or the mono compatibility, or the width adjustment. Most of the time people use MS BECAUSE it is an elegant solution, which is to say, they use it to show off that they know how. That is NEVER a good excuse to do something. At least, not if you main concern is the final product.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Interesting... I have never seen Decca Tree used on drums. I will have to try that the next time I have a chance. I've used it a couple of times on brass sections, but always felt the room let the technique down a bit.

A few cheeky questions, if I may ?

Do you use three of the same mics in omni, or mix'n'match a bit ?

Do you find you need a very good and/or largish room to get good results ?

Do you have rough starting mic positions for the tree ?

Thanks,

Nathan

[Light]

Originally Posted by PapillonIrl

Do you use three of the same mics in omni, or mix'n'match a bit ?

Three of the same. That is what a Decca Tree is. And really, to do it right, you need three pressure transducer mics, such as Neumann M 50s, or a DPA 4006 with one of their Acoustic Pressure Equalisers.

Originally Posted by PapillonIrl

Do you find you need a very good and/or largish room to get good results ?

You certainly want a room which sounds good.

Originally Posted by PapillonIrl

Do you have rough starting mic positions for the tree?

3-4 feet in front of the kit.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[PapillonIrl]

Thanks for that, I do have a couple more questions if you don't mind though ?

I assume you use 3, not five mics ?

You are arranging mics something like this ?

______
| |
| Kit |
-------

Cmic


LMic RMic


What kind of heights are the mics ?

Do you generally set up the L/R mics the same height as the centre one ?

How long is one side of the triangle (I take it it's equilateral )?

Do you get any problems with comb-filtering ?

I would need a bigger and better room than mine to try this, but I am very interested in how it would sound, as I have never been satisfied with the stereo spread of my drum recordings.

Forgive poor diagram effort,

Thanks,

Nathan

[Light]

Originally Posted by PapillonIrl

I assume you use 3, not five mics ?

What kind of heights are the mics ?

Do you generally set up the L/R mics the same height as the centre one ?

How long is one side of the triangle (I take it it's equilateral )?

Do you get any problems with comb-filtering ?

3 mics.

Height really depends on how the drummer sets up. Anywhere from 6-10 feet.

Usually all the same height.

Play around with distances until you like it.

Sure, there can be some phase cancelation, but I have never had a problem with it. The real thing is to be getting the room. Works best for Jazz drummers. I also have found for the last few years that I don't really like stereo drums, and am mostly doing mono overheads, though I will still do stereo room mics, I just don't center them on the kit.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[PapillonIrl]

Thanks !

Realism is the thing...

I do FOH for a Big Band Rat Pack ensemble...

Recently they have been hassling me to do a decent demo disc for them.

Methinks I should get the local Arts Council involved... Some serious rooms in dem Muso Halls...

Thanks.

[PapillonIrl]

[QUOTE=Light
...I also have found for the last few years that I don't really like stereo drums, and am mostly doing mono overheads, though I will still do stereo room mics, I just don't center them on the kit.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi[/QUOTE]

Just re-read that... Interesting.

Too tired now to come up with a clever comment... but thank you for the food for thought.

G'night.