OK...how should I do this?

[justharold]

Here is the layout of my studio. http://theburrellfamily.homestead.com/studio_dim.html

The walls and the ceilings are all drywall of some sort. The floor is hardwood.

I am willing to do just about whatever to do this thing right (or, at least, as "right" as is possible).

So...I am at you all's mercy...

Any help you can give to acoustically treat this space will be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks.

[notbradsohner]

anything? does this include building new unparalell walls?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey notbradsohner, 15 huh? I wish I was as savy as you are getting at that age. Ok, what can we do to help justharold?
Here is the criteria.

Any help you can give to "acallyoustic" treat this space will be GREATLY appreciated.

Here is the will

I am willing to do just about whatever to do this thing right

Here is the caveat.

(or, at least, as "right" as is possible).

Here is what exists.

The walls and the ceilings are all drywall of some sort. The floor is hardwood.

You've been around here for a while. Give it your best shot.
fitZ

[justharold]

Originally Posted by notbradsohner

anything? does this include building new unparalell walls?

Hmmm...

Actually, that would not be totally out of the question. However, given the positioning of the doors (etc.) it would be a problem, I'm thinking.

[Innovations]

Are you honest about the ceiling being only 6'10 inches high?? That's downright claustrophobic.

[justharold]

Originally Posted by Innovations

Are you honest about the ceiling being only 6'10 inches high?? That's downright claustrophobic.

Yep. Unfortunately. Apparently, the apartment was added to the basement as an afterthought.

Or else it was designed to be used as housing for really short people...

[justharold]

Sorry for the blatant "bump", but I'm really serious about this...

[Todzilla]

Dude, your room sizes are small, but more tragically, your ceiling height is gonna kill you. I would downsize my expectations if I were you.

Are you renting? I'd bail.

Do you own? You may be able to mitigate the whole ceiling issue a little bit. Take the drywall off the ceiling and fill the bottom half of the joist voids with OC705, then tack breathable fabric on the underside of the joists.

Still, you'll be wishing for tall ceilings all the while

[notbradsohner]

what about a slat wall? Your space is fairly large sized, do you know what the problem frequencies are yet?

http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm
check this link out, you might want to look into something like this along your walls.

[justharold]

notbradsohner,

The "slat wall" looks cool. It is definitely an option.

How would the slat thing be used for the corners where there are doors? (Or any type of bass traps, for that matter)

I do not know what my problem frequencies are (nor do I exactly know how to find out).

Thanks for the link.

To clarify...my objective (and primary concern) is the recording of vocals and acoustic intruments. No live drums or micing amps, etc.

Also, this is a house that I am in the process of owning (I guess that is the best way to describe the situation). I do plan on adding another room to it eventually (one that I can actually increase the ceiling height on...)

[notbradsohner]

you can figure out your problem frequencies relatively easily and cheap.


http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

download the modecalc program, and read the explanation below. Basically, you can kind of predict what your frequency response will be like in your room. All you do is enter the dimentions

if you want to get more technical................................. (this is also on the realtraps website)\

get a cheap measurement microphone (behringer ecm800) and a decent pair of monitors and a computer. Set the mic in the space you will be recording, or the desired sweet spot. Preferrably somewhere in the middle of the room. On the realtraps site, it has a bunch of test tones you can download. Play these thru the speakers, and hit record. Pretend like the speakers are your soundsource that you will be recording, so put them in the room accordingly. Anyway, hit record and play those tones. After all of the frequencies have been played, look at the recorded track. Hopefully, your software will have some kind of spectrum analyzer or something, so that you can check the frequency response for each frequency. See what frequencies are really loud or really soft, and build your slat wall accordingly. So that you will have a "tuned" room.

P.S. I highly suggest watching the "NON-MODAL PEAKS AND NULLS IN SMALL ROOMS" video on the same site. Here is the link http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm . This will basically explain what I just said.

[DDev]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Hey notbradsohner, 15 huh? I wish I was as savy as you are getting at that age.

There is serious doubt in my mind that notbradsohner is just 15. My son just turned 16 and I don't think there is a single kid I've come across his age (or twice that age for that matter) who can talk acoustics as intelligently as nbs does here. If he is really 15, my hat is off to him (well, it is off anyway regardless of his age because he is one helpful guy who seems to get this acoustics black magic ).

Cheers,
Darryl.....

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey Darryl, how are you. Well, I'm a trusting type person, so when I read he is 15, I just assumed he is.

fitZ

[Innovations]

Originally Posted by justharold

notbradsohner,

To clarify...my objective (and primary concern) is the recording of vocals and acoustic intruments. No live drums or micing amps, etc.

Well, given the low ceiling height and your plans I would go with a really dead room and then mix in a larger room reverb. as far as putting bass traps in a corner with a door either you put them on the door or the opposite wall or you just put the bass trap on the opposite corner. Bass waves develop between one corner of the room and the opposite corner. So if you kill them at the opposite corner you have done the job.

[justharold]

Again, I thank you gentlemen for the time and consideration you are giving to my "problem".

Also, thank you nsb for the links.

As for the measurement mic, I do own a Rane RA27 (I think that is what it is called) that has it's own mic. I figure that I can just record thru that thing (using the various tones). However, if I'm not mistaken, the mic has to be used with the RTA/EQ (seeing as it has to be powered by it). So I could just record bypassing the EQ.

Thought the slat wall looks interesting, it does seem to be a bit harder to construct than say "framed rigid fiberglass". Do you think that the slats would be more effective?

Also, what would you suggest that I do with the ceilings? I'm thinking that I should make them more absorbant. How about the floor? Carpet? Hardwood? A combination of the two?

Thanks again...

(By the way, I too have had some serious doubts about this "15 years old" thing. Good grief, I was barely potty trained by then!

Oh, well...regardless of how old you are...I sure do appreciate the help.)

[notbradsohner]

I am 15, and went thru this too, so I learned a lot on the way I guess..............................thanks for the compliments........I guess. There are still people on here with vast ammounts more knowlege than me, like Mr. Fitzpatrick here!

Anyway
1) That rane should work, just to give you a general idea of what is going on. Remember, most mics have their own frequency peaks and dips, so do not use that Rane if it is heavily colored. It wont give a clear representation of your room, but a picture of your room mixed with the mic. I did this with a studio projects C1, and my room registered relatively flat. Well, it turned out, that almost every peak and dip my room had, the C1 had the opposite, and my room was actually in horrible shape.

2) With the slat wall it will be difficult and precise, but you can come much closer than using something like framed 703/705 panels. You will need broadband absorbtion also if you do a slat wall (703 provides broadband absorption, which means it absorbs a very high frequency, a semi-low frequency, and everything in between), but it is kind of hard to absorb a specific frequency with framed panels. The optimum way to catch a frequency is at 1/4 of the sound wavelength. With a panel, this will be the frequency that is absorbed the most. The problem is, you could have 9 or 10 crazy frequencies, and would have to build a panel for each of them and place it in the proper place, if you want to specifically target them. Also, while catching these 9 or 10 frequencies, they are also catching every other frequency around them. So, for example, if you have a peak in the mids at a certain frequency, then great, you build a panel for that frequency. But, along with that peak in the mids, you also have a dip in the highs, which you are only making worse with absorbtion.

3) Hard floors will be best, simply becasue they are not carpet. Carpet absorbs high frequencies very well, but it cannot absorb any lows and almost no mids. So, this will leave your room bassey and boomey, with highs taken out, and bass going everywhere, it will be very bass heavy. Woodfloors reflect everything, which can be good or bad. Remember that the floor and ceiling are just like walls, sound doesnt know any better. More than likely, these will be paralell. This is where absorbtion or diffusion comes it. Absorbtion will simply stop those frequencies, and eliminate standing waves and echose between your floor and ceiling. Diffusion will break the soundwaves apart, so that they can be absorbed by the walls. You could also do a slanted ceiling, which eliminates the parallell wall factor.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

There are still people on here with vast ammounts more knowlege than me, like Mr. Fitzpatrick here!

Ha! I wish Thanks for the compliment too, but this is when I must post my disclaimer again.

DISCLAIMER: I, Rick Fitzpatrick, under no circumstances, or in no way, shape or form, claim to be any sort of STUDIO CONSTRUCTION OR ACOUSTICS expert, know it all, Harry Potter or other wizard, specialist, or professional, nor am I experienced in any physical construction of real studios, practice rooms, control rooms, home theaters, vocal booths, or other construction requiring extreme sound transmission loss or special acoustical treatment. NONE. PERIOD. ZERO. ZILCH. I also have NO CREDENTIALS, DEGREE, DIPLOMA, CERTIFICATE, BADGE, ARM PATCH, or even a valid reputation for knowing what I am talking about I simply give my .02 based on what I've read and thats it. OK? If it happens to align with actual fact, I must be havin a good day.
So carry on notbradsohner, cause at 15, I'd say your well on your way to understanding the more common solution oriented advice. Although, for a better understanding of things(not that I have achieved this) I'd suggest reading Alton Everests book "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" and maybe a few of the more advanced studio construction books, like Phillip Newells. This rabbit hole(acoustics) is filled with unintuitive caves and dead ends. Not to mention, passing on "net fact", of which I may have been guilty of in the past. Thats why I seldom give acoustics advice anymore as I have become aware of the more subtle and deeper phenomena that I know very little about, and I hate basing advice on things I have no education or thorough understanding of anymore. Like Standing waves. We take for granted that this is a simple phenonema that is well understood. On the contrary. Read this and you will see why.

http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_plane.htm

Maybe this will influence you to dig deeper before relating "net fact" advice. Not all we read is truth. Especially on the net.
Well, that about covers my advice to you. Enjoy the journey, but heed the warnings at the beginning of the hole. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!
I have come to the conclusion, that acousics is one of the most wierd sciences out there, and the known extent of its realm is still mostly unexplored territory and the surface barely scratched. But again, only my .02
I do know this. Alice was lucky. I too barely escaped the rabbit hole.
fitZ

[notbradsohner]

Mr. Fitzpatrick makes a good point, I am not an expert either, but I offer up what I know (or think) I know. I read that first book "The master handbood of acoustics" Definatley recommend that one. Nothing is as good as some good ole reading. that is how I learned a lot.

[DDev]

Originally Posted by notbradsohner

I am 15

Well, then, all I have to say is "keep it comin, man". You obviously have an intelligent mind and you have an excellent future ahead of you. So, keep adding your $0.02 here and keep studying this stuff because you have a clear way of explaining things and a good practical understanding of acoustics.

Cheers,
Darryl.....

[notbradsohner]

well, thanks for the compliments guys!

[Michael Jones]

justharold, you haven't answered one key question:
"Do you own this space, or are you renting it?"

[justharold]

Originally Posted by Michael Jones

justharold, you haven't answered one key question:
"Do you own this space, or are you renting it?"

Well...neither. Right now, anyway. However, I have total use of this space for my studio.

The house actually belongs to my parents (who are in their 80's). I become the owner when they pass away (which I hate to even think about...)

[mshilarious]

Could you post a floorplan drawing the adjacent rooms, closets, etc.?

[justharold]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

Could you post a floorplan drawing the adjacent rooms, closets, etc.?

OK...here it is...

http://theburrellfamily.homestead.com/studio_dim2.html

The closets measure as follows: Closet #1 is kind of wedged under the stairs. At full height, it measures 2' 9.5" deep and 3' wide. However, it extends under the stairs for another 6'2" with it's ceiling tapering to the floor.

Closet #2 is 2' 6.5" deep and 6' 6" wide. However, for some reason, the ceiling in there is only 6' 4" high.

Behind the closets (and all along the south wall) is basement. Unfortunately, I don't see any possibility of extending the rooms into that direction as that would involve relocating the furnace, etc.

The bathroom measures 5' 8.5" deep by 7' 9.5" wide. I have considered taking out the tub (which is on the south side of the bathroom) and knocking out that wall into the "Recording Room" (and moving the bathroom wall in about 3.5' or so. However, I do not know as it would be much help.

The North, East and West walls all lead outdoors (which would explain the windows ). The "exception" being the North wall of the control room that is adjacent to the porch.

There does exist the possibility (someday) of extending the room outside, I suppose. However, it would have to be North and West, as the East wall is very close to our property line.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions about my "description".

[justharold]

I have pretty much resigned my self to the fact that I am going to have to pull down the ceilings. That is, tear down the plaster (or whatever it is) and go with just the floor joists (etc) above. That will increase my ceiling height to about 7' 8" or so.

Would I acoustically treat it beyond that? Also, is there any way to dress it up at all (without messing with the sound)?