Preamp to complement Brick and SSA P1?

[Mr. Moon]

Hi. I'm looking for a 2-channel preamp to complement my Groove Tubes "The Brick" and my Safe Sound Audio P1 preamps. I am looking to use this new preamp mainly for drum overheads, acoustic guitars (6 & 12 string), electric guitar cabs, and perhaps some other instruments ...but not so much for vocals.

I have been looking at the FMR RNP and Focusrite TwinTrak. I have searched the forums here and while there is quite a bit of information about each on its own, there's not so much info comparing these two to one another for sources other than vocals. (I already own a RNC, so I know the high quality of the FMR products). I am leaning towrd the RNP, as some of the feedback I've read suggests that the pre's in the lower-end Focusrite products (i.e. the "Platinum" line) are not that great until you get into the "ISA" product line. However, I have also read that the RNP is not so great on acoustic instruments, as it has a bit of an "in your face" mid bump that doesn't really flatter them too well. I want to spend ~$500.00. That's all I can afford now, so please don't tempt me with the $1678 4-channel sytek and the like!!

Any comments, suggestions, personal experiences related to either of these pre's would be most appreciated, especially any information comparing and/or contrasting their performance in regards to the applications I'll be mainly using them for. Please feel free to suggest other 2-channel pre's that fit in my budget too!

Mics: SP C-4's, SP T-3, BeyerDynamic M69, Sm57 & 58, SP C-1, ATM 33a, ATM 25, Cascade M-20, etc….

Soundcard: E-MU 1820M

Thanks!

-mr moon

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

That's all I can afford now, so please don't tempt me with the $1678 4-channel sytek and the like!!

Uh ... okay. That should be pretty easy, considering they're only $800.

Seriously, though, I'd look at that.

Or just pick up anything, really. You got a brick, and it's cool and bla bla bla ... you got the Safesound and it's easy to use and sounds good - yippee skipee and all. I mean, for 500 bucks are you really expecting to bring something ultra special and gee-whiz-look-at-me cool to the table? At a certain point, gain is gain is gain. How many new and unheard of ways are there, really, to boost the volume on a mic for 500 bucks?

Maybe it's time to get a blender. You know, something that'll chop things up ... puree, etc. You could make ice cream floats and milk shakes with it. That would be cool.

[rdozz]

Mr Moon,

I have the Brick, GR ME-1nv , and a RNP. I love my RNP on some vocals and most acoustic guitars, I record. FYI, I also have a Sound Craft M8. I picked up the Brick after hearing what you and others had to say about the unit. I am fortunate to live close to Humbuckers Music, he loaned me the Brick to test. I tested it using a AT4047 on my wife's voice and all I can say is wow....that is a sweet comdo. If you would like, I will make mic sample tracks using all 3 pre-amps. You tell me which mic you would like to hear:
AT4050
AT4047
AT4040
EV RE-20
Mxl V69
Blue Kiwi
SM58
SM57
SM81

Female vocal...........

Rob

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Uh ... okay. That should be pretty easy, considering they're only $800.

Seriously, though, I'd look at that.

Or just pick up anything, really. You got a brick, and it's cool and bla bla bla ... you got the Safesound and it's easy to use and sounds good - yippee skipee and all. I mean, for 500 bucks are you really expecting to bring something ultra special and gee-whiz-look-at-me cool to the table? At a certain point, gain is gain is gain. How many new and unheard of ways are there, really, to boost the volume on a mic for 500 bucks?

Maybe it's time to get a blender. You know, something that'll chop things up ... puree, etc. You could make ice cream floats and milk shakes with it. That would be cool.

Geeeeeeeeeeeezzz, you'd think I had asked for the Spanish Inquisition!! (Nobody ASKS for the Spanish Inquisition! ) OK, maybe you had a bad day and the forum is a nice passive-aggressive means for you to work through your issues, whatever...

The price I quoted for the 4 channel Sytek comes from here:
http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/p.../preamps/mpx4/

But now I see the error of my ways, as they have the thing on sale through February for $859. DOH!! So, my bad on that quote...

I guess I should explain in more detail (especially for Chessrock, as flat-landers do have a hard time understanding things at times... ) why I'm looking for the 2-channel preamp for whatever reason it appears to concern some of you ...even though it's my money and I work hard to be able to spend it, but whatever. In addition to the reasons I posted earlier, I need the 2 channel-pre to allow me to record on all 8 inputs of my soundcard concurrently for recording drum kits and such where I'd like to have some matched pres to do the overheads, or for stereo micing an acoustic guitar, where I'd also like to have matched pre's. I do not have 8 preamps at this time, so that's why I need to get a couple more. I would buy a blender if it had as good of specs as the RNP and had balanced outputs!!

Thanks!

-mr moon

(Edit: added smilies to convey my mirth within this retort)

[chessrock]

Look, smartass ...

I gave you one heckuva good recommendation, there. You could have all the goddamn Brent Averil-racked API's or Neves ... you could even have a whole closet full 'a DW Fearns.

But nona' them is gonna' make you a malted milk shake. It's all in the blender. Alright, the coffee maker too.

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

...the forum is a nice passive-aggressive means for you to work through your issues, whatever...

And a very healthy means, I might ad.

(You can buy the Syteks direct for like 800 bucks by the way. And I really like the Old School Audio stuff. If you don't have the money for something nice like that, then I'd just get something to tie you over in the meantime. Maybe a mixer or a two-channel something or other).

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Look, smartass ...

I gave you one heckuva good recommendation, there. You could have all the goddamn Brent Averil-racked API's or Neves ... you could even have a whole closet full 'a DW Fearns.

But nona' them is gonna' make you a malted milk shake. It's all in the blender. Alright, the coffee maker too.




And a very healthy means, I might ad.

(You can buy the Syteks direct for like 800 bucks by the way. And I really like the Old School Audio stuff. If you don't have the money for something nice like that, then I'd just get something to tie you over in the meantime. Maybe a mixer or a two-channel something or other).

OK. So what blender should I get?

Apparently you did not read this part of my post:

Originally Posted by mr. moon

...But now I see the error of my ways, as they have the thing on sale through February for $859. DOH!! So, my bad on that quote...

And while you may feel this is a good way to deal with your personal issues, it is not really conducive for those of us who are looking for some relevant suggestions to assist with our purchases... And calling ME "smartass" ...wow!

-mr moon

[chessrock]

Alright, you smartass punk! That does it.

I apologize. I was in a silly mood, so I decided I would act all silly in the first thread I came accross. It was totally random. It was pretty silly, though, don't ya think? I have no idea where the blender thing came from. I guess I just had a craving for a milk shake.

Sorry. It sounds like you're on the right track, though, with your equipment. You've made some good purchases there (Brick + Safesound). I still like Sytek and OSA, by the way.

Cheers

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Alright, you smartass punk! That does it.

I apologize. I was in a silly mood, so I decided I would act all silly in the first thread I came accross. It was totally random. It was pretty silly, though, don't ya think? I have no idea where the blender thing came from. I guess I just had a craving for a milk shake.

Sorry. It sounds like you're on the right track, though, with your equipment. You've made some good purchases there (Brick + Safesound). I still like Sytek and OSA, by the way.

Cheers

...Just don't bring out the comfy pillows!! I cannot stand the comfy pillows!!

And I gotta to tell ya', if I had the dough NOW, I would jump on that 4-channel Sytek. I just wish that deal would be there in a month or so and I would jump on it, but it's only good through February. Bummer!!

Rock on!

-mr moon

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

..if I had the dough NOW, I would jump on that 4-channel Sytek. I just wish that deal would be there in a month or so and I would jump on it, but it's only good through February. Bummer!!

I would imagine that deal will always be good. Mike Stoika basically is Sytek. He lives about 1/2 hour northwest of me, and he's kind of an interesting sort. He sells everything direct. Just give him a call when you're ready (in a few months, next year, whenever) ... tell him all you have is 800 bucks and I can almost guarantee he'll take it.

I keep bringing this up because, basically, a rack of Syteks, a Safesound and a Brick ... that's all good stuff. You could build a studio around that (and maybe a decent mixer) and never have to worry about quality gain for your mics.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I would imagine that deal will always be good. Mike Stoika basically is Sytek. He lives about 1/2 hour northwest of me, and he's kind of an interesting sort. He sells everything direct. Just give him a call when you're ready ... tell him all you have is 800 bucks and I can almost guarantee he'll take it.

I keep bringing this up because, basically, a rack of Syteks, a Safesound and a Brick ... that's all good stuff. You could build a studio around that and never have to worry about quality gain for your mics.

Should I be sure to *not* mention my preference of the Green and Gold and the cheddar that runs through my veins?



-mr moon

[SonicAlbert]

$500 is the same as $800, it really is. Putting an arbritrary money limit on the gear is counter-productive. What I mean by that is that you are essentially telling the market what the quality you want for the price you want. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, it works the other way around. The gear of a certain quality is available for a certain price. So I'd say save up a little longer and spend the $800. Once you amortize it over the years and years you'll be using it, the difference in price is really minimal.

And incidentally, the best way to judge the price of a unit is not by considering its sticker price, but the actual cost of using it over the lifespan of the gear. So for example, I just sold one of my TASCAM DM-24 mixers, which I owned for three years. Bought it new for $2,000 and sold it for $1,000. So it cost me $1,000 to own the unit, which comes to $333 a year or $27.50 per month. Let's say I bought a less good mixer for $1,500 and sold it for $500, the cost of owning the unit would be the same, but I'd have had a less good mixer those years.

Now, the fact is that when you buy lower end gear you have to replace it sooner because either it isn't made as well or you outgrow it quickly (that's more likely). So even if you pay less up front, you tend to keep it a shorter time, which actually *raises* your costs, not even factoring in the costs of purchasing the same type of unit over again.

So that's the long way of suggesting that you bite the bullet and put up a little extra money for some preamps that you'll keep long term. You have done the right thing so far with your preamps, so I think you should stick with the quality program.

My 2 cents.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by SonicAlbert

$500 is the same as $800, it really is. Putting an arbritrary money limit on the gear is counter-productive. What I mean by that is that you are essentially telling the market what the quality you want for the price you want. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, it works the other way around. The gear of a certain quality is available for a certain price. So I'd say save up a little longer and spend the $800. Once you amortize it over the years and years you'll be using it, the difference in price is really minimal.

And incidentally, the best way to judge the price of a unit is not by considering its sticker price, but the actual cost of using it over the lifespan of the gear. So for example, I just sold one of my TASCAM DM-24 mixers, which I owned for three years. Bought it new for $2,000 and sold it for $1,000. So it cost me $1,000 to own the unit, which comes to $333 a year or $27.50 per month. Let's say I bought a less good mixer for $1,500 and sold it for $500, the cost of owning the unit would be the same, but I'd have had a less good mixer those years.

Now, the fact is that when you buy lower end gear you have to replace it sooner because either it isn't made as well or you outgrow it quickly (that's more likely). So even if you pay less up front, you tend to keep it a shorter time, which actually *raises* your costs, not even factoring in the costs of purchasing the same type of unit over again.

So that's the long way of suggesting that you bite the bullet and put up a little extra money for some preamps that you'll keep long term. You have done the right thing so far with your preamps, so I think you should stick with the quality program.

My 2 cents.

SA,

Yeah, I hear where you're coming from, but in my world as a hobbiest, there is a big difference between $500.00 and $800.00, mostly time. It will take me time to get the additional 300 bucks that I can allot to music-gear purchases, as I have a set gear-related "allowance" that I try to stick to so I can pay the house mortgage, feed my family, have electrical service in my home, etc. If I were bringing in income from these gear pruchases, I could probably increase my budget, but alas (or maybe "Thank God!!") I don't try to make money with recording, so there's no way I'll be getting more dough anytime soon.

I also strongly agree about buying quality items which will stay with me for some time, hence the RNC, Brick and P1; all of which are really great products at their price point. If I go the RNP route, I can get it now and know that I'll have it for a long time. The Focusrite is *not* in the running anymore, but if I had 300 more bucks.... Sytek!

-mr moon

[rdozz]

This thread took a wierd turn, but my offer still stands........The Brick rules and the RNP rules for the money.

Rob

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by rdozz

This thread took a wierd turn, but my offer still stands........The Brick rules and the RNP rules for the money.

Rob

Yeah, sorry I didn't get back to you for a while, but there was a period of extreme silliness (serious enough to require a few Monty Python quotes to get it all sorted out! ) and such which drew me away from your post. I apologize for this....

Anywho, I would take you up on your offer if you had a LDC mic that I also had and could record some acoustic guitar with the RNP, as that is one of the uses I have planned for it. I want to start getting into some stereo micing techniques and I have read that it is best to at least start with indentical mics (C-4's in my case) running through identical preamps so you can learn to differentiate what the postioning effects are rather than hearing the differentiation provided solely due to the dissimilar gear.

Rest assured, the TwinTrak is not in the running any longer ...I guess I was kinda blinded by all the shiney lights and cool knobs!

-mr moon

[deepwater]

Let me solve this problem -

Soundcraft M4 - 4 wonderful pres, almost perfect EQ, direct outs, digi outs. Heck I'd spend a few more bucks and get the M8.


http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SpiritM4/

Here's a nice review -
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...eviews/#anchor

Now thats getting the most for your money

[rdozz]

The RNP has much more mid range detail and head room than my M8 SoundCraft. I will post an acoustic guitar track recorded with 2 MXL 603s thru my RNP.....Listen to the small piece of a song called Drift on...sweet acoustic..XY stereo...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/fo...llipsmusic.htm

let me know what you think......I love the Brick!
Rob

[Warhead]

How many sources do you record at once? What's your monitoring chain look like? You may want to sink money there. What do you expect out of your next purchase, what really needs to be improved?

War

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Warhead

How many sources do you record at once? What's your monitoring chain look like? You may want to sink money there. What do you expect out of your next purchase, what really needs to be improved?

War

Hi War,

I will be recording drum kits, so I'll need to fill out the 8 inputs on my soundcard. I need at least 2 channels of preamps, and may go up to 4. The Sytek looks like it would be a winner, but I'm too poor for that item right now...

Need preamps more than anything else right now.

-mr moon

P.S.- Still love my P1!! Best vocal pre I have at the moment

[Warhead]

Yeah, the P1 is all purpose but it excels at vocals.

Why not get a small used mixer for now? I say used, because you know you'll want to upgrade past it in the future and you could probably pass it along for what you have in it.

Mackie, Soundcraft Spirit or the like, fine for drum recording for sure. Once you upgrade past it, you may keep it for a monitor mixer.

War

[deepwater]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

Hi War,

I will be recording drum kits, so I'll need to fill out the 8 inputs on my soundcard. I need at least 2 channels of preamps, and may go up to 4. The Sytek looks like it would be a winner, but I'm too poor for that item right now...

Need preamps more than anything else right now.

-mr moon

P.S.- Still love my P1!! Best vocal pre I have at the moment

The Soundcraft M4 would give 4 nice pres for $500.00

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Warhead

Yeah, the P1 is all purpose but it excels at vocals.

Why not get a small used mixer for now? I say used, because you know you'll want to upgrade past it in the future and you could probably pass it along for what you have in it.

Mackie, Soundcraft Spirit or the like, fine for drum recording for sure. Once you upgrade past it, you may keep it for a monitor mixer.

War

Hi War,

I have a small BearRanger mixer that I use for band rehearsal, but there's no way I really want to incorporate that into anything I'm recording. For the money the BearRanger mixer does what it does and is great for rehearsals, but IMHO, the preamps suck @ss. They are not "good" for recording.

I want to buy a piece of gear that I'll have around for the next few years (or forever) which will allow me to step forward and progress with my recordings rather than just tread water or actually slide backwards. I am looking for something that will be able to compete with the P1 and Brick and round out my preamp arsenal, rather than buy something that just pisses me off every time I hear something that was recorded with it.

...I think I'm leaning towrd the Sytek at this point, as I can get 4 channels for less than the cost of the 2 channels in the RNP (per preamp costs, not the entire unit, as the Sytek is more expensive). I have enough for the RNP and I think I know how I can spin this to work for me... My wife LOVES a great deal. I think if I point out what the retail of the Sytek is vs. what I can get it for, she'll see how I cannot afford NOT to buy it!!

...Either that, or I just hide it from her.

-mr moon

[chessrock]

You could just withold sex until she caves in.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by chessrock

You could just withold sex until she caves in.

Ummmm, yeah...

Maybe I could give HER a reprieve from sex for a few months if she lets me get it instead!!

-mr moon

[Bassman Brad]

Well, first of all, I want to emphasize that I don't have any personal on-hands experience with any of these units, so you may or may not consider my opinion to be useful. However, I've spent a lot of time recently listening to the 3D Mic Pre CD (vol. 1), and I've got a pair of well-trained ears and some decent playback equipment, so I feel that I have something to contribute to this conversation. This CD compares a wide variety of preamps with identical input signals and identical mics. From these listening experience, I've started to classify mic pre's into three distinct categories. You've got those that do the "clinically pure" thing. This includes Earthworks and Sytek preamps. Then, you've got the pres that have the "tube sound" vibe. Then Manley dual mono is particulary impressive to me in this area, although you can generally spot that "tube sound" pretty easily on just about ANY of the tube pres on the CD. Then, you've got what I would call the "enhanced" sound, which is relatively natural, but also somewhat "larger than life" somehow. These pres just make you go "Ooooh yeah" when you hear them. They sound "natural" when you listen to them all by themselves, and you can only tell that they are not the last word in accuracy when you do an A/B comparison against one of the pres that have truly mastered the "clinically accurate" sound (such as the Earthworks pre). In an actual A/B comparison, you can hear that the "clinically accurate" pres do, indeed, have a noticible increase in resolution in the high end compared to the "bigger than life" pres. The Grace 201 and the Focusrite Red series both absolutely kill in the category of "enhanced reality" preamps, based upon the comparisons that I've heard. Many of the old, classic transistor pres also seem to fit into this category.

Since you specifically have two pres that are designed to address two of these sounds, it seems to me that you need to look for one that provides the third point of the triangle. The Brick is a tube design (and not just a "starved tube" thingy, either, but a "true tube design"), so it clearly falls in the tube camp. I'm not familiar with P1, but from what I've heard about it, it seems like they are shooting for more of a "enhanced reality" sound, rather than absolutely, uncompromising accuracy (i.e. tonally, it probably has more in common with the Focusright Red series than the Earthworks ZDT). What this tells me is that you really need to find a pre that does the ultra accurate, clinically pristine thing to have an ideal compliment to what you already have. (After all, that was how you defined your question, originally. You wanted to know what preamp would be a good "complement" to your other two pres.) Unfortunately, it costs money to squeeze that last bit of ultra-vivid realism out of a signal. You've already got decent preamps that do the other two sounds pretty well. I suspect that the RNP will sound somewhat similar to your P1, and wouldn't gain you the extra tonal flexibility that you seem to be searching for. (Money spent that doesn't accomplish your goal is money wasted, no matter how much or how little it might be.) Furthermore, the others are correct that you might be better off spending the money somewhere else in the signal chain. Quite frankly, a carefully chosen mic in that price range will go a LOT farther in giving you more tonal flexability than a third preamp, when you already have two nice pres. If you just have to have a second channel RIGHT AWAY for stereo recording, you could just get another P1 (or another Brick). Otherwise, my recommendation is that you wait until you can get an Earthworks or a Sytek, or just forget about getting another pre entirely and spend the money on something else that you need.

Brad

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

Ummmm, yeah...

Maybe I could give HER a reprieve from sex for a few months if she lets me get it instead!!

-mr moon

Hee-hee, it worked!!!

Between pointing out what a bargain the Sytek is and the "reprieve from sex" thing

...I was somehow able to convince my wife to allow me to purchase the Sytek!!!!

SWEET!!!!!!!!!



-mr moon