Not message music

[laatija]

At least not for me.

I wrote this song about a gay person's struggle with coming out. Not being gay and not having any personal experience with the subject matter, I struggled with qualification issues; but the song was there so I wrote it.

Staying In (verses in Dm, chorus in G)

Black leather shoes, Sunday power tie
White button down, grab a piece of time
Fifteen years, have flowed into my mind
Since that day, when god was on my side

Face like a clown, political power bitch
You're just a pawn, in a game played by the rich
Four letter word, you seem a bit confused
Hate's not love, I'm human just like you
Yeah, the miracle's in me too

I'm standing out here on the water, I'm staring up at the blue sky
I've shown you who you want me to be, if I show you who I am
Would I look the same in your eyes

My dear dad, I know could never stand
The thought of me, with another man
But is it ok, for him to visualize
Another man that way, with my sister

Black and white, a mask for wrong and right
But why not gray, I don't choose to feel this way
I feel your fear, believe me I'm scared too
Please help me live, instead of persecute

I'm standing out here on the water, I'm staring up at the blue sky
I woke up scared and gray today, outside it's cold and starting to rain
I'd like to go on out but I think I'll stay in

[Layla Nahar]

hmmm ...
well, let me say first that I'm a PinkFloyd/Radiohead/Silverchair kind of girl when it comes to lyrics... so where you are headed may not be my taste.

but - it's not a bad idea, and just cause you're not gay doesn't mean you should be forbidden to write about gay stuff

anyway, I'm just not getting much from what you've written. It's like there's no gut feeling there. What made you decide to write on this subject? maybe that can give you some insight that can help listeners connect better with your material.

[Rokket]

It's hard to write something you don't know much about or haven't experienced except through a very displaced 3rd person.

Sometimes you miss the mark, or don't quite get there.

I feel that's what happened here....

[andyhix]

Originally Posted by Layla Nahar

hmmm ...
well, let me say first that I'm a PinkFloyd/Radiohead/Silverchair kind of girl when it comes to lyrics... so where you are headed may not be my taste.

At the risk of threadjacking, I was curious about this. PF and RH are two of my favorite - no, my two favorite bands, I would say. I don't know squat about silverchair except for that one song from a few years ago about the water being "very hard to drink." That song never really did it for me...what of theirs should I look for, ya know at the used cd place and whatnot? What are they like aside from that one song?

[Layla Nahar]

Originally Posted by andyhix

What are they like aside from that one song?

Get Diorama. I just discovered them recently thru this CD and my freind who turned me on to them said they started of strait rock/grunge.

Diorama is harmonically rich, and rather orchestral. I've been listening to the lyrics, rather than reading them. I really like the way this guy writes. "Across the night, I fell in love with people sleeping" With the music it really bring feelings to you that are hard to describe. And different from PR and RH, theres a strong hopeful/optimistic quality. I've added him to my creative heros list, along with Jeff Magnum (neutral milk hotel)

The other CD by them that I'm digging by them is Neon Ballroom.

If you listen to them, let me know what you think.

[laatija]

Originally Posted by Rokket

It's hard to write something you don't know much about or haven't experienced except through a very displaced 3rd person.

Sometimes you miss the mark, or don't quite get there.

I feel that's what happened here....

A stage I'm sure most new songwriters go through is believing one thing and then being told something completely opposite. After I wrote this I felt it was spot-on and deep because I mentally became the young man in the song. It's about a person from a fundamentally religious family who discovers he's gay and struggling with that and the values he was raised with and his family (and majority society) still have. That being said, as you mentioned, I'm not gay, but I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't feel it necessary for other opinions. I'm also sure writers struggle with whether they should believe what they're hearing from others or they should forge ahead because history is filled with examples of people who believed in themselves over what they were told. With experience comes confidence and I'm lacking both just yet. Think I'll try it out on some of my gay friends and see what they think.

Thanks.

[Layla Nahar]

Originally Posted by laatija

I'm also sure writers struggle with whether they should believe what they're hearing from others or they should forge ahead because history is filled with examples of people who believed in themselves over what they were told.
Thanks.

A good rule of thumb with asking for feedback is asking people how they reacted to it. Don't ask people for advice. Just find out - did it work, did it move you? What parts did your listener/reader like and why? what parts did they dislike and why. From there you can take the feedback and decide if it is legitamate for you or not. You are the artist and are always in control of your own stuff. The listener's reaction is always valid, it always has to be - it is thier reaction. But thier reaction should only be a possible guide, a way for you to gauge whether your work is doing what you want it to do or not. But in the end, you are the artist and you make the decisions.

[Benreturns]

Originally Posted by laatija

At least not for me.

I wrote this song about a gay person's struggle with coming out. Not being gay and not having any personal experience with the subject matter, I struggled with qualification issues; but the song was there so I wrote it.

Staying In (verses in Dm, chorus in G)

Black leather shoes, Sunday power tie
White button down, grab a piece of time
Fifteen years, have flowed into my mind
Since that day, when god was on my side

Face like a clown, political power bitch
You're just a pawn, in a game played by the rich
Four letter word, you seem a bit confused
Hate's not love, I'm human just like you
Yeah, the miracle's in me too

I'm standing out here on the water, I'm staring up at the blue sky
I've shown you who you want me to be, if I show you who I am
Would I look the same in your eyes

My dear dad, I know could never stand
The thought of me, with another man
But is it ok, for him to visualize
Another man that way, with my sister

Black and white, a mask for wrong and right
But why not gray, I don't choose to feel this way
I feel your fear, believe me I'm scared too
Please help me live, instead of persecute

I'm standing out here on the water, I'm staring up at the blue sky
I woke up scared and gray today, outside it's cold and starting to rain
I'd like to go on out but I think I'll stay in

Ermmm... You say the song was 'there' so you wrote it?? Im not feeling it myself. One minute its goin for poetic standing on the water and then my sister can fuck a bloke why cant I... Maybe the song could be transcended into another format. I dont really think it works myself, but hey im not that way inclined. Maybe if i million gay people dig it, you got yourself a million seller?

[Rokket]

To me, the key is, does it acurately depict what a gay person is feeling about their sexual orientation?

"Think I'll try it out on some of my gay friends and see what they think."

"Maybe if (a) million gay people dig it, you got yourself a million seller?"

That may be what you have to do. Or talk to them about their feelings and then write your song.

"One minute its goin for poetic standing on the water and then my sister can fuck a bloke why cant I..."

This was the major issue I was having with your song. Structure... If you feel you must write about this, then do as I advised and talk to a gay man or woman about coming out, and how it made them feel, how it affected their family. For everyone that came out, there were just as many families that supported them as there were those who couldn't take the fact that "my kid is gay". It seem like a hefty undertaking for someone who is straight to write about being gay, so some research is involved.

[laatija]

Originally Posted by Benreturns

Ermmm... You say the song was 'there' so you wrote it?? Im not feeling it myself. One minute its goin for poetic standing on the water and then my sister can fuck a bloke why cant I... Maybe the song could be transcended into another format. I dont really think it works myself, but hey im not that way inclined. Maybe if i million gay people dig it, you got yourself a million seller?

The line about the sister is actually a reference to the fact that some people find it repulsive to think about gays having sex. So the idea that I'm attempting to represent is, if dad's thinking about me having sex with a man, is he also thinking about my sister having sex with a man. It's more of a respecting privacy issue than anything.

I'll spin off from there and raise this ? - I personally really like very obscure references in lyrics, but a lot of what I read/hear about songwriting is it should be straightforward (maybe not the right wording). But you don't have to look far to find some really obscure lyrics in successful writing; John Prine for example. Maybe I should recognize your feedback as pointing out the difference between obscure and misleading.

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by laatija

Maybe I should recognize your feedback as pointing out the difference between obscure and misleading.

Bingo! That's right on the money.

[Benreturns]

No im not thinking that hard about it if you get me. Im jus looking at it at face value. As lyrics to a song. The flow just doesnt seem to gel in my mind. Maybe i would need to hear the song actually performed. Maybe the lyrics dont do it justice on paper.

[kesterdevine]

laatija, i appreciate your courage to take on a complex and controversial subject. it's also good to know there are straight people out there who care enough about the issues that gays face to sit down and write about it! politically/socially charged songs probably fair better when they are put in musical context rather than just being read - i think mostly because it is easier to digest for some people. then again, some people just don't like political music. I'm a huge fan of bands like The Clash and Indigo Girls who put the message out there. You've hit a lot of key points and have shown a lot of insight into the hypocrisy and double standards. Maybe your
lyrics could use a little tweaking as they seem a bit all over the place. I like the title - maybe you could weave that in as a refrain or chorus? - something to give it cohesion. If it's an issue/lyric you feel strongly about i think you should work it out, put some music to it and see where that takes you. thank you for sharing and best of luck.

[jeap]

i responded to the other thread.

you have 2 threads for the same song!