Getting a wet snare sound

[KeithCF]

Hi -- I've been tracking (acoustic) drums to some songs, and am in the midst of mixing one down. I Drumagog'd the kick and it sounds great, the toms also sound nice and full, but my snare sound is making me crazy.

I've tried EQ'ing, cutting and boosting, added a touch of reverb, but I can't get that really wet, slappy sound I'm going for. I am trying for a very present, in-your-face modern snare sound (think Interpol or Nirvana). It's a decent snare (Ludwig Acrolite, coated head), and the raw sound is good.

Any tips for getting a wet sound snare in the mix?

Thanks!

Keith

[dr.colossus]

by wet im gonna assume you mean a lot of "snare" in the sound and not just a big sloppy reverb.

hmm at mix stage its a little difficult... a bottom snare mic would be the go during tracking, and a lot of wetness in the snare comes from the overheads. if you've got perfect takes and dont want to re-record maybe make a copy of the snare track cut everything below 500-1khz, gate, compress, add a genourous plate reverb (not excessive)... it should sound like shit! now bring that up under your original snare... i'm thinking on the fly here and have never tried this before myself, so i could be way off the mark here

[The Seifer]

just pour some water on the head and run it throught PRO TOOLS - this is how the pros do it.

[glimmer_doll]

what about a short slapback delay...?

[Cloneboy Studio]

The classic Nirvana/Dave Grohl style snare is pretty much your standard 80's snare sound made a bit thuddier. Try a gentle, wide boost around 1.2 khz for thud, some 5khz for crack, and add some 100hz bottom to it. Try some cutting around 400-600hz.

If you are using Drumagog, why not just isolate a snare hit from a Nirvana CD and sample it?

If you are using real drums, a 14" fairly deep snare tuned correctly is needed for the base sound. Top head should be tuned a little tighter than normal, bottom head detuned about an octave lower, and the snares fairly tight, but with enough life in them to still crackle.

Drummer must hit HARD to get the tone singing.

Note that a Grohl snare doesn't have the brightness a lot of guys want these days. No piccolo snares or huge boosts on 10khz! Dave's snare is typically a little bit dark, but very fat.

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

The classic Nirvana/Dave Grohl style snare is pretty much your standard 80's snare sound made a bit thuddier. Try a gentle, wide boost around 1.2 khz for thud, some 5khz for crack, and add some 100hz bottom to it. Try some cutting around 400-600hz.

If you are using Drumagog, why not just isolate a snare hit from a Nirvana CD and sample it?

If you are using real drums, a 14" fairly deep snare tuned correctly is needed for the base sound. Top head should be tuned a little tighter than normal, bottom head detuned about an octave lower, and the snares fairly tight, but with enough life in them to still crackle.

Drummer must hit HARD to get the tone singing.

Note that a Grohl snare doesn't have the brightness a lot of guys want these days. No piccolo snares or huge boosts on 10khz! Dave's snare is typically a little bit dark, but very fat.

Thanks for the comments! I'll try this out. Any advice on reverb/gating/delay with these EQ settings?

I am trying to stay away from Drumagog'ing the snare for now -- 1) I want to see if I can get a decent sound on my own and 2) I haven't been able to effectively remove the non-Gog'd snare sound from the other mics when I Gog the snare. Even when I use the Drumagog "ducking" feature, you can hear the OH volume being pulled down when Gog'd snare hits. So far, I haven't been able to get the whole kit sounding realistic using a Gog'd snare.

Thanks --

Keith

[Cloneboy Studio]

My suggestions:

Lightly gate the snare (you should do this anyway). Don't go for (-inf), but more like -30db. That noise will get lost in the mix anyways and the snare won't sound... well... gated.

Compression: 4:1 is a good start. If your signal is peaking around -15dbfs I'd set threshold around -22dbfs and add about 6db of gain. Set attack about 45ms and release around 75-125ms. Typical snare settings.

EQ: Maybe +3db at 100hz, -3db around 600hz, +1.5 around 1.2khz (too much here and it can get boxy), and probably +3db at 5khz (fairly wide).

Reverb: I'd give about 100ms pre-delay, about 300ms decay time and choose a fairly tight room sound. Try to minimize the early reflections and aim for just getting a hint of 'verb tail. I'd set the wet/dry to about 15-20% and no more. You want some vibe, not to recreate the 80's.

Personally I do a few off the wall things with my drums that get good results. Keep in mind I have almost unlimited power in ProTools because I'm working on a HD system with a core card and 7 accel cards! Here's the drum tracks from this weekend's session:

Track 1 : Kick
Track 2 : Snare
Track 3 : Overhead L
Track 4 : Overhead R
Track 5 : High Tom
Track 6 : Floor Tom
Track 7 : Room Mic (Omni)
Track 8 : High Hat

I threw the following TDM's/plugins on these tracks:

Track 1 : Kick - gate, compression, EQ
Track 2 : Snare - gate, compression, EQ, touch of 'verb
Track 7 : Room Mic - EQ (subtractive--took out some midrange)
Track 8 : High Hat - compression, EQ

Then I did some bussing for stereo TDM's:

Buss 1 : Toms - High Tom, Floor Tom (compression, EQ)
Buss 2 : Overheads - OH L, OH R, Room (compression, EQ, reverb)

I created the following *stereo* aux busses in ProTools to mix in to thicken things up:

Aux 1 : Drums - Kick, Snare, both Toms (compression--and a ton of it, McDSP Analog Channel)

Aux 2 : Overheads - OH L, OH R, Omni, High Hat (compression, lighter than the other drums--mostly for balance)

In general I am aiming for big, fat rock drums but fairly light cymbals that don't pump and breath or sound too compressed. I like to control the amounts seperately. I don't buss the high hat with the rest of the cymbals because it can "pull the compression" down and make the hat too loud compared to the cymbals--which should be louder IMHO.

Note that I'm getting 90% of my reverb from what I do to the overhead buss. The rest is a bit on the snare because, well... a close-mic'd snare sounds stupid without a touch of reverb (I use the same parameters as the OH reverb, but no early reflections, a little more delay time and a less wetness).

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

My suggestions:

Lightly gate the snare (you should do this anyway). Don't go for (-inf), but more like -30db. That noise will get lost in the mix anyways and the snare won't sound... well... gated.

Compression: 4:1 is a good start. If your signal is peaking around -15dbfs I'd set threshold around -22dbfs and add about 6db of gain. Set attack about 45ms and release around 75-125ms. Typical snare settings.

EQ: Maybe +3db at 100hz, -3db around 600hz, +1.5 around 1.2khz (too much here and it can get boxy), and probably +3db at 5khz (fairly wide).

Reverb: I'd give about 100ms pre-delay, about 300ms decay time and choose a fairly tight room sound. Try to minimize the early reflections and aim for just getting a hint of 'verb tail. I'd set the wet/dry to about 15-20% and no more. You want some vibe, not to recreate the 80's.

Personally I do a few off the wall things with my drums that get good results. Keep in mind I have almost unlimited power in ProTools because I'm working on a HD system with a core card and 7 accel cards! Here's the drum tracks from this weekend's session:

Track 1 : Kick
Track 2 : Snare
Track 3 : Overhead L
Track 4 : Overhead R
Track 5 : High Tom
Track 6 : Floor Tom
Track 7 : Room Mic (Omni)
Track 8 : High Hat

I threw the following TDM's/plugins on these tracks:

Track 1 : Kick - gate, compression, EQ
Track 2 : Snare - gate, compression, EQ, touch of 'verb
Track 7 : Room Mic - EQ (subtractive--took out some midrange)
Track 8 : High Hat - compression, EQ

Then I did some bussing for stereo TDM's:

Buss 1 : Toms - High Tom, Floor Tom (compression, EQ)
Buss 2 : Overheads - OH L, OH R, Room (compression, EQ, reverb)

I created the following *stereo* aux busses in ProTools to mix in to thicken things up:

Aux 1 : Drums - Kick, Snare, both Toms (compression--and a ton of it, McDSP Analog Channel)

Aux 2 : Overheads - OH L, OH R, Omni, High Hat (compression, lighter than the other drums--mostly for balance)

In general I am aiming for big, fat rock drums but fairly light cymbals that don't pump and breath or sound too compressed. I like to control the amounts seperately. I don't buss the high hat with the rest of the cymbals because it can "pull the compression" down and make the hat too loud compared to the cymbals--which should be louder IMHO.

Note that I'm getting 90% of my reverb from what I do to the overhead buss. The rest is a bit on the snare because, well... a close-mic'd snare sounds stupid without a touch of reverb (I use the same parameters as the OH reverb, but no early reflections, a little more delay time and a less wetness).

Awesome Cloneboy -- thanks for the detailed description. I'm definitely going to try this and see how it works out.

Hey, I see you are from Maumee -- I actually dated a girl from there back in my college days!

Thanks again --

Keith

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by KeithCF

Hey, I see you are from Maumee -- I actually dated a girl from there back in my college days!

You from around here?

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

You from around here?

Originally from Indiana, went to school at Miami of Ohio. I played drums in a Ohio band in the mid-80's -- The Keepers. We did great in Ohio and moved to Boston to get "signed" -- and of course ended up starving and breaking up

Keith

[Farview]

Originally Posted by KeithCF

2) I haven't been able to effectively remove the non-Gog'd snare sound from the other mics when I Gog the snare. Even when I use the Drumagog "ducking" feature, you can hear the OH volume being pulled down when Gog'd snare hits. So far, I haven't been able to get the whole kit sounding realistic using a Gog'd snare.

Thanks --

Keith

You need to compress the overheads with a fast attack time. Another trick to making a gog'd snare sound real is to mic the bottom of the snare as well as the top. Use the top mic to trigger Drumagog and leave the bottom mic in the mix.
How are you mic'ing the kit? You seem to be having some isolation problems between the mics, or are you replacing the snare sound one that sounds so completely different that it makes the replacement obvious?

[Supercreep]

Right off, does the snare sound the way you want it to live? Because nothing in the world will make a wimpy or inconsistent snare hit sound like a firm consistent hit across the rim that vibrates the shell of the drum.

[Ptownkid]

Originally Posted by The Seifer

just pour some water on the head and run it throught PRO TOOLS - this is how the pros do it.

As much as this dude is being a weiner, i have to admit I laughed.

But seriously though, the best way to make a snare wet is to take it out for a romantic dinner, get it really drunk and then have your way with it...

yes, i'm tired and chuckled but by the morning I'll probably be ashamed. Much like someone who uses my method of wettening...ashamed in the morning.

[mattamatta]

I found that comment quite entertaining =D

Inspires me to go to guitar center....

Go talk to the sales guys, ask them about a generic "protools", rave about it.... we record with $5 radio shack mics, and it doesn't matter, cuz in protools we can fix it all and make it sound like a neumann u87 through a "neve" (being sure that this "neve" isn't a "neve ____ console" or a "racked pre off an old neve _____".... but just a "neve").

Then I'll have to come back in a different day and stick to names like Lavry, DW Fearn, Soundelux, T.H.E maybe... stuff I wouldn't expect them to have and possibly not know about.

Haha, I just realized that I HAVE to try raving to an unsuspecting sales associate about the sound on "my funk logic boxes".

Ah, this summer will be a fun one.

[KeithCF]

Originally Posted by Farview

You need to compress the overheads with a fast attack time. Another trick to making a gog'd snare sound real is to mic the bottom of the snare as well as the top. Use the top mic to trigger Drumagog and leave the bottom mic in the mix.
How are you mic'ing the kit? You seem to be having some isolation problems between the mics, or are you replacing the snare sound one that sounds so completely different that it makes the replacement obvious?

Hi Fairview -- I mic my kit as follows:

Snare: SM57
3 toms (2 rack, one floor): 3 - SM57's
OH left: Oktava MC-012
OH right: Oktava MC-012
Kick -- an Audio Technica mic, but I Gog it -- works great!

I don't mic the hi-hat because I find I get enough of it in the OH mics. I have been having better success lately with Gog'ing the snare. The key seems to be mixing your "real" snare with the Gog'd one (like your top/bottom mic trick -- thx for that) -- and making the real snare more prominent. Before I was trying to completely replace the live snare with a Gog'd one and it wasn't working out. Too much of the live snare came thru the overheads, and when I used the ducking feature you could hear the volume being pulled down, esp. if I was on the ride, or bashing away at the cymbals.

I am definitely compressing -- for the OH's I use about a 4.0 ratio, a 40 ms attack, and a 500 ms release. Those settings OK?

Thanks --

Keith