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[dobro]

1 Here's a quote: "Compression was originally invented to shoehorn the dynamics of live music (which can exceed 100 dB) into the restricted dynamic range of radio and TV broadcasts (around 40-50 dB), vinyl (50-60 dB), and tape (40-105 dB), depending on type, speed, and noise reduction used)." Okay, anybody know what the dynamic range of digital is?

2 When I record voice and acoustic guitar, I always clip two or three times on the vocal, once or twice on the guitar. Okay, which one do you think: turn down the levels? record with the levels up, but with a tad of compression? You people record vocals with compression? Acoustic guitar?

I've asked five questions - hopeful, no?

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Do Da Bro:

I would just comment on your comment about hitting the RED CLIP marks when recording....
most articles I've read and texts "boldly" state that bouncing up into the red isn't all that bad as long as distortion doesn't set in. I guess the more "headroom" you have, the more you can touch the no no land of clip-red. My Art mic preamp has three zones: green, yellow, and red. If I ever hit the red according to the way the box works, my studio would blow up. So, I guess certain types of recorders can take more "red" than others, as well as processors, etc.
PS. I never use compression on vocals.
I put my Alesis compression box in the box after I found that it did very little to make a good recording.
Have a good 2000
PS

[This message has been edited by The Green Hornet (edited 01-12-2000).]

[S8-N]

Getting the hottest possible signal to hard drive isn't nearly as important as getting the hottest possible signal to tape.
On my setup, I cant hear the difference between a signal that was pushing the red and a signal that was kinda weak and had to be amplified.

[Recording Engineer]

S8-N, it's just as important. For Example: On a 16-bit max. system, 0db=16-bits, anything lower is less than 16-bits; the lower you go, the less bits you get. This is why 24 sounds better than 16; I'm sure you can hear a difference in that.

If I am able to get both versions of the same song on the compilation, there will be an example of this if you compare the drums between the two versions. Both where recorded on ADAT-XTs (16-bits max.) The difference is largely noticable. One version was tracked with compression on the drums (able to get hotter signals because they're more consistant), and the other had no compression while tracking. Of course, there are other factors why the drums tracks on the version without compression while tracking sound like sh*t, but that's the main reason.

[drstawl]

Wait a sec: R.E. Although I agree with you that getting the hottest signal to digital is just as important as with tape, (maybe more because tape can be somewhat forgiving of transient transgressions) that comparison of 16 and 24 bits was a bit misleading to some that might be reading this. These are binary exponents.
And Dobro: A practical way to see what the dynamic range is in your digital system is to connect whatever pre-amp you're going to use and disconnect any input to that pre. Run the input volumes up to where you usually use them, then see where the jittering floor sits on your V/U meter. With my Gina, I generally get ~75dB from floor to clipping with my Porta-07 as a pre-amp. I'm sure a better pre would widen this. I'd say if you're clipping, then turn down the levels a tad and try again. I usually shoot for -3dB instead of 0 so I've got a little room for error in my playing technique. If you mix a bunch of tracks, you'll have to cut the average volume of each one below -3dB anyway to fit the whole thing into the mix without clipping it.

[S8-N]

P.S. The VU meters in CEP dont work... It's best to just ignore them.

[dobro]

Yes, they're not very useful, are they? And Mr Hornet, I'm actually clipping - distortion when I listen to it. I learned this from the sonusman - don't worry about the meters, pay attention to the sound.

Thanks for the ideas, y'all. Think I'll try a bit of level down, plus a touch of compression.

[S8-N]

Hey D.bro,
Do you have an outboard compression unit or are you using CEP software compression?

[dobro]

Not that I've tried it out yet, but CEP. The reason I'm asking about whether to use compression to record is because:

* what I'm hearing about recording indicates that recording as effect-free as possible is the way to go. Apply fx afterward.

* for this particular project, I'd like it to sound natural.

* I don't entirely trust CEP effects - their preset reverbs don't appeal to my ear much, for example. Okay, I can make my own reverb settings, but if the manufacturers themselves can't come up with attractive presets, it doesn't inspire confidence.

[S8-N]

The compression presets also suck. Which brings up a good point... without real time preview, how the hell are you supposed to get the reverb you want???
I think what they are referring to is inserting a compression unit into the signal path BEFORE it gets to tape(hard disk). I think that compressing after the fact has a different effect.

[Recording Engineer]

drstawl:
Sorry, I know 16 vs. 24-bits is rather large, maybe a better example would be: 16-bits will sound significantly better than 10 or 12-bits. You notice a huge difference on the drums if both of my submited, same song gets on the compilation; I'll admit there's a huge difference for other reasons, but mainly because of no compression while tracking and the low bit resolution (the signals weren't very strong).

S8N:
You're sure right about compression before and after tracking will sound different.

[dobro]

Rec Eng - what's the difference between applying compression before and after? Does one color the sound more?

[Recording Engineer]

I like the way this unknown author put it:

"there are certain transients coming out of a mic pre that will affect the compressor in a
particular way that you won't get doing it 'in post'. It's not a night and day difference....but for some types of sounds it's my preference."

[dobro]

Huh?

[dmcsilva]

dobro:

you got sumpin' against vowels?

dmc

[Recording Engineer]

dobro:
For example:
Signals coming from a mic pre can have sharper, spikier transients than signals coming from analog tape due to natural analog tape compression; and the hotter the signal, the more natural compression.

Also, signals from a mic pre as compared to signals from a digital recorder are more great then mic pre vs. analog tape due to the simple nature of digital recording which "stair-step" samples.

I probably made it even more confusing.

[drstawl]

That was the compressed version of the spelling. Now was it pre or post?

[dobro]

drstawl - I tried the input-less VU meter check, and my Wave 8/24 runs at about 76-74 dB. Better than vinyl, but I can see why tape's better.

And rethinking what I'm going to do about it, I think I'll try it both ways and see if I can hear a difference.