what makes a great song

[Rock Star 87]

What do u all think makes a great song. Was it Kurt Cobain's drug-filled random lyrics about plateaus and bridges, or Eminem's fuck-u style? what do u think.

[A Reel Person]

What makes a great song, is something on the level of McCartney's highly adept melodic song craft & voice that's pleasant & easy on the ears. Granted, McCartney's like one in a million. Go figure.

That, & something like Lennon's cutting to the heart of true feeling with music, raw human emotion, & pushing the envelope a bit, while still adhering to recognizable & accepted songwriting standards.

[TaoManna Don]

I agree with the comments about Lennon and McCartney. The coming together of those great song craftsmen is what made the few years that the Beatles were together span into generations of fans throughout the world.

But when I hear the question "what makes a great song?", my first thought for current (and especially new) aspiring songwriters is "what must we do to write a great song today?"

The music of Kurt Cobain and Eminem have at least one thing in common -- the lyrics are about life as seen through the eyes of the writer. We all have a different take on what is happening around us. A great song is possible if we can write lyrics that reflect what we really see and believe and feel.

The words can't just say "I feel great" or "I feel like crap." They must tell a story (a slice of life) that the listener can hear and know how we feel. The lyrics must be guided by the writer's angst, frustration, joy, etc. and not hemmed in by the tyranny of rhymes. We can't let the rhymes tell us what to say (see my thread "Life Doesn't Rhyme" for more on that).

We can learn much from those songwriters we admire by studying their music. We can learn much from the multitude of good books on songwriting (see my thread "What songwriting books have you read"). We can take songwritng classes, go to workshops, join clubs. We can get feedback from our peers from places just like this. We can find professionals we trust who can guide us toward great songs. We can learn the priceless value of acting on good advice and having the willingness to rewrite our precious lyrics (see my thread "Do we fall in love too soon").

But most of all, we have to start where we are, we can't just jump ahead to a great song if we don't have any idea how to get there. We start, we write and we....

Keep writing,
Don

[philboyd studge]

What makes a song great?
It knows what it is and makes you remember it.

[Layla Nahar]

funny - I was just having this conversation with my roomate last night, about melodies.

there are too many kinds of music and too many kinds of people to come up with an answer for this. - you could concievably look at a given type of music or genre, take the top songs of a given period and figure out what they all had in common.

I think part of what makes us feel that the beatles are so great is that they became so ubiquitous, and that was only possible because the techonolgy of mass media and the culture to support it was really coming into its own when the beatles came along. I think there are probably a fair number of beatles level songwriters out there niw, but they are just not made to be a part of our lives. I know that I for one have beatles songs "imprinted", and I think that makes these really impressive writers seem even harder to judge impartially.

my vote for great songs of today would be - ween and radiohead. - also, there is an egyptian pop artist called amr diab who is of that calibur.

[A Reel Person]

A strong hook goes a long way.

[TaoManna Don]

Originally Posted by A Reel Person

A strong hook goes a long way.

I agree. A strong hook may not make the song great but it's an important part of what it takes to make the song memorable.

For those who might not know, a lyrical hook should almost always be the title (the part you want most remembered). In an "abab" type song, the title (hook) should appear at least once in the chorus ("b" section). One or two repeats of the title (whatever seems natural) in the chorus helps establish the hook. (See my thread "Life Doesn't Rhyme" for a bad example of a chorus but a good example of title placement in a song with a chorus.) In an "aaba" type song, the title should appear at least once in each "a" section. It should appear at the same location in the section in at least two of the "a" sections. These are just basic guides. There are plenty of examples available that ignore these guides completely. It always helps to know the basics even if you chose not to use them.

Lesson over. Class dismissed. But...

Keep writing,
Don

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by Layla Nahar

there are too many kinds of music and too many kinds of people to come up with an answer for this.

I think that pretty much sums it up...

What makes one person react with a resounding "ooo turn this up..." certainly won't have the same affect on everyone... I think it's amazing how many times I've read about various bands predicting which song on their upcoming album will be the 'hit' only to be shocked by the one that actually becomes one...

I don't think there's any one silver bullet answer to this...

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." (Decca Records' response to The Beatles' 1962 audition tape)

[TaoManna Don]

Originally Posted by BentRabbit

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." (Decca Records' response to The Beatles' 1962 audition tape)

Oops! Guess they blew that one.

The sad thing is that today it's even harder to break in to the business. And from what I hear on the radio, the music business gatekeepers haven't gotten any smarter. If you're undiscovered don't give up. Just look for other ways to get your music to the public at large (like the internet). When you love what you're doing don't rob yourself the joy of doing it just because you can't make a living at it.

Keep writing,
Don

[Garry Sharp]

Originally Posted by Layla Nahar

there are too many kinds of music and too many kinds of people to come up with an answer for this.

Spot on. I remember posting something a few months ago which drew an extraordinary range of reactions, some hated it, some liked it, one individual (not on this bbs, on the Sound on Sound one) who had worked in the music business said she had copied it to her hard drive and even suggested some labels she thought would release it.

As for that famous Beatles story about Dick Rowe (the Decca man who famously turned them down) George Martin said in his autobiography that the demo in question was truly dreadful.

[Benreturns]

Actually unanswerable. For a start my idea of a great song might differ from yours.(although I do think Lennon McCartney had the 'great song' down as a science!!)
Sometimes a song just 'gets' you. It might not have clever lyrics or even (as above) tell a 'slice of life the listener can relate to' or whatever, but you listen and go "that is a great song". We could talk about hooks, melody, harmony, beat, instrumentaion for ages. A commonly accepted song accepted widley under the great song banner might have one or more of those, but at the end of the day a great song is just a GREAT song.

One day I might be in the right position where I start humming something, run to my guitar and get it down on paper and be lucky enough for someone to say "hey - thats a great song!" Ya never know!

Until then Ive got Lennon and McCartney to idolise...

[Rokket]

Any song that gets stuck in your head and you don't mind it being there. It has something memorable and it touches you in some way. A great riff, a great hook, meaningful lyrics.
I think a great song is one with honest emotion that was written from the heart, and played with soul. A song with character that you can listen to 40 years from now and still like it.
Like the afforementioned Beatles...

[philboyd studge]

Ever been in a large room full of people talking and milling about when someone walks in and time freezes? That's what a great song is.

[quackzed]

i think its simple... a great song is a great idea!...dressed in its own perfect clothes, the introduction and first verse introduce it to you, sometimes first two verses and they set up the IDEA,2nd verse(s) section elaborate or reexamine or shed some light or redefine or continue to explain....the idea!
bridges are like dessert a nice palatte cleansing break. some songs dont come with dessert and dont need it, and some songs have sections added or removed etc... but the great ones take the main idea and really give it emotional strength, they make us feel, they build us up so they can knock us down again.

[Aaron Cheney]

I think a lot of people confuse a great recording with a great song.

IMO, two things make a great song: it is memorable and it has real, powerful emotional content.

There are lots of poorly written songs that have become great recordings because they were made memorable and emotionaly powerful by a great performance.

On the other hand, a well written song is always memorable and full of emotional content as long as it is performed well enough that the lyrics, melody, and harmony are intact.

Going further, I think that making songs memorable is definitely something that is a matter of technique and craft; something that can be learned and taught. This includes things like rhyme, prosody, alliteration, hook writing, creating good metaphors and similes, etc.

Emotional content is a different story. IMO it's the part that seperates the Lennon/McCartneys and Stings of the world from the rest of us. We all have unique experiences and influences and outlooks to draw from. As a songwriter you have to learn to tap into those things and present them in ways that remain unique and yet have broad appeal. Learning to reach those creative places comes more naturally to some people, but it can also be taught/learned.

Just one guy's opinion.
A

[TaoManna Don]

Originally Posted by Aaron Cheney

I think a lot of people confuse a great recording with a great song.

IMO, two things make a great song: it is memorable and it has real, powerful emotional content.

There are lots of poorly written songs that have become great recordings because they were made memorable and emotionaly powerful by a great performance.

On the other hand, a well written song is always memorable and full of emotional content as long as it is performed well enough that the lyrics, melody, and harmony are intact.

Going further, I think that making songs memorable is definitely something that is a matter of technique and craft; something that can be learned and taught. This includes things like rhyme, prosody, alliteration, hook writing, creating good metaphors and similes, etc.

Emotional content is a different story. IMO it's the part that seperates the Lennon/McCartneys and Stings of the world from the rest of us. We all have unique experiences and influences and outlooks to draw from. As a songwriter you have to learn to tap into those things and present them in ways that remain unique and yet have broad appeal. Learning to reach those creative places comes more naturally to some people, but it can also be taught/learned.

Just one guy's opinion.
A

Well said!

Just one guy who shares your opinion.
Don

[gullfo]

and there was also motown... they had a few hits...

http://info.detnews.com/history/stor...&category=life

great songs need to connect with the listener - melody, vocals, lyrics, "sound", solos, whatever rocks your boat -- and there is plenty of all kinds of music to go around... and there is something great in all of it... but to pull it together into a single song is either hard work or pure luck...

[Benreturns]

How could we forget Holland - Dozier - Holland?

[vangore]

im probably gonna get flamed for this but not knowing what makes a song great is a huge factor in writing a great song.

[Aaron Cheney]

Originally Posted by vangore

im probably gonna get flamed for this but not knowing what makes a song great is a huge factor in writing a great song.

Yeah, you'll definitely get flamed for that because it's a really ignorant thing to say, and I mean that in the friendliest way.

You can't make a solid decision about anything in life while standing on the unsteady ground of ignorance, and songwriting is no different. Every verse, every chorus, every line, every word, and every note you put in a song is a choice, and if your choices are directed by education and experience they will be better far more often than blind luck.

A

[dragonworks]

great songwriters and great musicians

[vangore]

Originally Posted by Aaron Cheney

Yeah, you'll definitely get flamed for that because it's a really ignorant thing to say, and I mean that in the friendliest way.

You can't make a solid decision about anything in life while standing on the unsteady ground of ignorance, and songwriting is no different. Every verse, every chorus, every line, every word, and every note you put in a song is a choice, and if your choices are directed by education and experience they will be better far more often than blind luck.

A

hmm the point i was making was that to make unique music you need to completely ignore standard formulas like verse chorus verse bridge chorus and although i know we are all influinced on a subconcious level by the greats that proceded us i think the most intresting music would be a song that used all new ideas of how things should be done and not what mate a diffrent song great,

I dont know how well i worded that but hope the idea came through.

[ibanezrocks]

When I first started playing in a band my guitar teacher at the time told me there are two things that people first notice about a song, the singing and the drums. Hence the reason why my old band sucked, no one could sing, and our drummer couldn't keep the beat.
But a good guitar riff or catchy bassline really doesnt hurt either...

[Aaron Cheney]

Originally Posted by vangore

hmm the point i was making was that to make unique music you need to completely ignore standard formulas like verse chorus verse bridge chorus and although i know we are all influinced on a subconcious level by the greats that proceded us i think the most intresting music would be a song that used all new ideas of how things should be done and not what mate a diffrent song great,

I dont know how well i worded that but hope the idea came through.

Yeah... I hear ya. I used to feel a lot the same way. I love "artistic" type songs that break rules and stretch boundaries as much as the next guy. But there are two things about those kinds of songs: the people who wrote them knew they were going "outside" the norm and made those choices because they served the song, and they are almost always written by the artists who performed them.

My experience has been: The albums I've made that have lots of "outside" songs in terms of subject matter, song form, etc... are still sitting in boxes in my garage. People in general just weren't interested and I've had zero succes with them. My simple songs that "follow the rules" have done much better.

A

[vangore]

Originally Posted by Aaron Cheney

Yeah... I hear ya. I used to feel a lot the same way. I love "artistic" type songs that break rules and stretch boundaries as much as the next guy. But there are two things about those kinds of songs: the people who wrote them knew they were going "outside" the norm and made those choices because they served the song, and they are almost always written by the artists who performed them.

My experience has been: The albums I've made that have lots of "outside" songs in terms of subject matter, song form, etc... are still sitting in boxes in my garage. People in general just weren't interested and I've had zero succes with them. My simple songs that "follow the rules" have done much better.

A

ya thats true but then again both of us would be looking at from a musicians point of view and such songs would probably be apreciated by us for there unique qualities more than the would to the guy in the street, then again said songs would probably be complete flops and so would never see the light of day, I just dont know, there are formulas that make a song "pleasant" to listen to but average songs just bore me after a few listens.