monitor placement

[detuned6]

Due to lack of space (living room / control room) my monitors(event ps-8s) are about 6 inchs away from the wall. Does this increase the overall low end?
I wish i could pull them away from the wall, but i just dont have the space. I was thinking of getting some auralex to put on the wall behind the monitors, would this help at all? how about those Mopads?
My head is about 3ft away from my monitors, and ive been mixing louder lately. Should i be sitting alittle further away? Reason i ask is i allways have a problem getting the kick to punch thru, and find its home in the mix. If i sit 6ft away, bam theres the kick.
The room size is :12 ft x 12.5ft, like i said this is also my livingroom, and i rent.

[crosstudio]

yes, it increases the perceived low-end.

yes, getting some auralex pads will help to some degree but you'd better get bass wedges and not the 2", or 3" flat stuff. i've got primacoustic wedges. even still, the bass wedges are going to help, but not eliminate the problem.

i've got mopads too, but that's just so the speakers don't vibrate the stand that they sit on.

you and your speakers should form an equilateral triangle.

according to Blue you should be mixing at 85db SPL... of course i've got no idea how to measure that.

[COOLCAT]

next door neighbor is having the same conversation...or forum..
"$50. With a test tone CD, you measure (and then adjust) for flatness of frequency response. The SPL meter attaches to a camera tripod. Set it up about a meter from each speaker and feed the test tones to it, and measure the level of each band. Tweak until you get it as flat as possible and both speakers as similar to one another as possible. It'll take a couple of hours, but you'll learn an awful lot about what's coming out of your monitors."


so you play this CD, it will put out different freq 20-20Khz thru the speakers,
the SPL meter will register 85db....goal is to have each freq at 85db
= FLAT....

if not, i guess you go to the foam wall forum....and start on the traps.

you see i'm always backwards..once again i built fhkng traps for 3 months and
bought itchy fhkng Dow-Cornings703 and had no fhkng clue what frequency I was even after.....I had a Drywall freq...bzzzzzz...I did notice a entire change in my room sound....but it wasn't planned.

like shooting in the dark as they say. FLAT...Earl Flat.

[vestast]

EQ'ing your monitors is a bad idea.

Check out this FAQ from Ethan Winer http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

I would start with some bass traps in your corners and work from there. Download MODCALC and figure out what modes are building up the most in your room.

In a room that small you will need to do some absorption.

Good luck.

[detuned6]

Originally Posted by COOLCAT

Tweak until you get it as flat as possible and both speakers as similar to one another as possible. It'll take a couple of hours, but you'll learn an awful lot about what's coming out of your monitors."

so you play this CD, it will put out different freq 20-20Khz thru the speakers,
the SPL meter will register 85db....goal is to have each freq at 85db
= FLAT....

.

What do you mean by "tweak" & "flat"? I am not going to put an eq before my monitors , cause thats just blasphemy. (I remember about 2.5yrs ago some dude went on and on about it and blue bear shreaded him to peices.)

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by detuned6

What do you mean by "tweak" & "flat"? I am not going to put an eq before my monitors , cause thats just blasphemy. (I remember about 2.5yrs ago some dude went on and on about it and blue bear shreaded him to peices.)

Who? Me?????

[detuned6]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Who? Me?????

Yes, you Mr. bear. (It was a while ago.)

[vestast]

As he should have !

Hey Bruce - Long time no see

[COOLCAT]

Originally Posted by detuned6

What do you mean by "tweak" & "flat"? I am not going to put an eq before my monitors , cause thats just blasphemy. (I remember about 2.5yrs ago some dude went on and on about it and blue bear shreaded him to peices.)

never thought of EQing...but why not? i'll go read the old threads.

i'm assuming "tweak' the monitor angles, see if the room can help?

..wht the fhk do you do if you get this DB meter and play the blink CD?

I was guessing you get a freq thru the speakers, 20hz to 20Khz, and the DB meter will register if all the freq. have the same Db....
if so..that would be FLAT? yes/NO???

i'll check back....gone searching on this one.

I picked up a DB meter.$50 at Crab Shack...$70 at GC.

wish i would have know DB crap, before i put 3 months on hanging 703 on
my walls... oh well the materials can be moved.

[Ethan Winer]

Detuned,

> Should i be sitting a little further away? <

Thanks to vestast for suggesting my Acoustics FAQ. Also, for the complete story on how to set up speakers and the listening position, see THIS article on my company's web site.

--Ethan

[SCmaster]

Detuned6,

One thing you can also do is be sure that your monitors are not pointing directly at your ears while mixing. Do some measuring based on where you normally sit while mixing, and and then set a point behind you for your monitors to aim for.
Basically they should be pointing so that the cone of the speaker ( when followed from it's point of origin) should be pointing past your head to intersect with the patterns from it's partner approximately 12-18" behind you. This will decrease the strain caused by highs in your ears as well, but will definitely improve your bass perception. iso pads are always a good idea as they keep furniture and building materials from "coloring" your mixes, but i.m.h.o.....position is the key. Also remember lower frequencies tend to fall, so it's best to keep those woofer cones slightly above the level of your ears while comfortably seated in your chair.

Good Luck,



- 'tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt - author unknown

[COOLCAT]

i think it will be interesting to see the numbers on the room.

even if it's just a general "read".

starting to make sense in terms of "which type" or "where" to place the
wall-pads. good stuff.

I believe in getting to a standard or basic setup,
then your left with your ears and
financial situation...to get that sweeet, in your face sound.

just makes sense to "read" the room
instead of blindly hanging sht all over your
walls because GC sells it or someone said "go forth and hang foty-twoeth,
blankets on the 7th day, next to the door made of plasticparticle board!!"

[Middleman]

Originally Posted by SCmaster

Basically they should be pointing so that the cone of the speaker ( when followed from it's point of origin) should be pointing past your head to intersect with the patterns from it's partner approximately 12-18" behind you. This will decrease the strain caused by highs in your ears as well, but will definitely improve your bass perception.

That is the single best tip I have seen on this board in a long while. You just solved the imaging problem I have been having.

Thanks, MM

Oh, and the quote at the bottom of your note is not author unknown. I believe it was written by Solomon, King David's son, Old Testament.

[HangDawg]

Originally Posted by Middleman

That is the single best tip I have seen on this board in a long while. You just solved the imaging problem I have been having.

Thanks, MM

Yes, very interesting indeed. I may have to check that out myself.

[alanfc2]

Originally Posted by SCmaster

Detuned6,

One thing you can also do is be sure that your monitors are not pointing directly at your ears while mixing. Do some measuring based on where you normally sit while mixing, and and then set a point behind you for your monitors to aim for.
Basically they should be pointing so that the cone of the speaker ( when followed from it's point of origin) should be pointing past your head to intersect with the patterns from it's partner approximately 12-18" behind you. This will decrease the strain caused by highs in your ears as well, but will definitely improve your bass perception. iso pads are always a good idea as they keep furniture and building materials from "coloring" your mixes, but i.m.h.o.....position is the key. Also remember lower frequencies tend to fall, so it's best to keep those woofer cones slightly above the level of your ears while comfortably seated in your chair.

this is good I'd like to try this
But
I have my monitors speakers upright, like stereo speakers. The woofer is pointed at my chest and the tweeter is in line with my ears.
I will try the new direction =past = me for sure. But, with little space, turning and raising my monitors so that the woofer is above my ears seems almost impossible. Am I missing that much?
thanks

[stayouttamalibu]

Originally Posted by SCmaster

Detuned6,

One thing you can also do is be sure that your monitors are not pointing directly at your ears while mixing. Do some measuring based on where you normally sit while mixing, and and then set a point behind you for your monitors to aim for.
Basically they should be pointing so that the cone of the speaker ( when followed from it's point of origin) should be pointing past your head to intersect with the patterns from it's partner approximately 12-18" behind you. This will decrease the strain caused by highs in your ears as well, but will definitely improve your bass perception.

i was under the impression that it is ideal for the tweeters to be pointing straight into your ears. is that wrong?

[Middleman]

The height level of the monitors is supposed to put the tweeter centers across the middle of your ears. However, you can still orient the speakers at point just behind your head.

[stayouttamalibu]

ok...its just that in the research i have done, and actually also in the manual for my monitors (genelec 1030A), i was informed that you are supposed to have the tweeters pointed at your ears in the horizontal and vertical plane, so theoretically the actual height of the monitors wouldnt matter, you would just have to make sure they were turned and tilted correctly to point at your ears no matter how high they are. for instance, mine are physically below my ears, on my desk, but my mopads allow me to tilt them upwards the perfect amount for the tweeters to point straight into my ears.

[Middleman]

The way you just described would put the bottom of the speakers forward and the tweeters back slightly, because they are overall below you on the desk. Even though the tweeters are in line with your ears, you are promoting the lower frequencies arriving at your position first. The plane of the front of your speakers is not vertical and horizontal in the real world. I would imagine, because the way the sound bounces in your room is different than mine, that you might be receivng an image in which the low end slightly masks the high end. Your decisions will be based on the fact the the ear is getting the low end information first and responding to that. Also, you stiill may have to adjust your acoustic in your room to deal with the angle the monitors are overall pointing in the room.

The whole idea is to create a large square sweetspot, with as much depth, height and width as possible. You are trying to deliver the best spread of frequencies, from low to high, that your monitors can deliver to your listening position. You are also trying to get the best soundstage for placement of instruments and most importantly to hear the frequency overlap characteristics/problems of the instruments and voices.

Another consideration is depth. How accurate and how loud are reverbs? They tend to push things back into the mix. If you have to crank your reverbs to hear them and then notice they are excessive on other speakers, then your sweetspot may be lacking, or your monitors just aren't providing depth. Or, the placement, spacing and real world planes are not maximized for your listening position. Another issue may be that you can hear the reverb, but it does not accurately push the sound back into the mix. Either the speaker positions are off or your monitors are not creating an accurate image. Possibly both.

So, I would recommend, getting some speaker stands to elevate your monitors so they are vertical and horizontal in the real world with the tweeters at ear height and the monitors turned inward toward your listening postiion both aimed at a point 12 inches behind your head.

I actually measured the distance from the back walls that my speakers sit in the room. adjusting my desk so they are the same. I then measured the exact position of each monitor corner in relation to the other one. I have them precisely horizontal and vertical in the real world and turned inward exactly the same, used string, to a point 12 inches behind my head.

The result was a wider sweetspot. I think I have buried the issue at this point so I will sign off. Good luck with your imaging. It's one of the most important things you can do along with treating your room.

[stayouttamalibu]

so if you arent supposed to have the monitors angled up towards you from the bottom, why are mopads suggested for use flat, angled down, or angled up?

[Middleman]

When you understand the answer to that question, then you will be a recording engineer.

[stayouttamalibu]

nothing like a totally elitist, non-useful answer. thanks!

[LRosario]

It's funny cause we pay a room tuner 1000 bucks plus hotel accomidations to do just that.

Considering that setup, you probably are getting alot of low end, but in a really bad way. Monitor speakers are designed to live in an open space. So once you throw in extra factors (walls, consoles, monitor screens, etc) you start having problems.

The best angle for monitor speakers is a near perfectly balanced isosceles triangle (last I was told). The center point being the center of your head. Good speakers give you a wide sweet spot, so you could have them below or above your ear level.


In terms of padding, don't waste your money. They absorb highs, they do nothing for low frequencies. Low frequencies are a completely different beast that require things like bass traps, double or triple layered walls, floating floors....the list goes on.


The best thing is to angle your set up in a way so you can have your speakers out in the open, rather than up against the wall.


As for the kick, thats more of a mixing issue. Low frequencies require alot of boost to punch through a mix. High frequencies are dominant in the mix. So knowing that, you could try bringing up some high end on your kick.

good luck.