Neumann U87ai : a Pad issue

[popkid]

I went to a studio and tried out an U87ai that I was offered to buy second hand. I brought a friend with a good voice -and a strong as well- so I had to turn on the pad. To my surprise, the sound totally changed. All the clearity and brightness disappeared and the sound became a bit muddy. Having no previous experience with U87:s I´d be happy if someone could tell me if they´re supposed to be like that or not.

I didn´t buy the mic because I dont want a one that has such huge differences in sound with the pad turned on or off....

/popkid

[slobbermonster]

Personally I'm not a huge u87 fan, it's one of those mics you have around cuz of the name. It's hard telling what was going on. If your looking for a vocal mic, you can do much better.

[popkid]

I know it´s hard to tell what was going on but I´d just like to know if there´s supposed to be a difference in sound if the pad is turned on or off. With my limited knowledge about electronics I think that there might be a slight, slight difference in sound but not as big as was the case with this u87ai.

The thing is I haven´t really tried out many mic´s. I have had an AKG C3000 which in my opinion sounds really bad. I´ve had a SP B1 as well which was better but not great for me. I sing in a band and we got signed a few months ago and since then I´ve been recording in a couple of studios and in one of them I sang in a U87 (not ai) and I really liked the sound. My future plans is to set up a small but good studio for our band so we dont have to have huge mic collection for all sorts of voices, it just has to suit mine + ack. guitar. That´s why I´m into the U87. I know some people say "get an SP C3" instead and some say "get a dragonfly" and some "get a rode k2" but I´ve tried the U87 on my voice and it really works and I´m not sure if will have the opportunity to try anything else in the near future...

My voice can be heard on www.thezoo.se

The sound quality of the recordings are really bad cause they are just demos. We haven´t updated the site with new recordings. I sing quite different on the two songs as well. But maybe someone has an idea of what mic might suit my voice (it´s not very good, more of a "soundthing-voice").

This appears to be fantastic forum.
Best regards

[slobbermonster]

how much you want to spend?

[popkid]

I can spend somewhere between 2000-2500 US bucks, but then I have to eat noodles for three months...

[slobbermonster]

well concerning the pad, they can contribute to tonal differences but on the u87 it shouldn't be extreme. Some mic makers won't put pads on their mics because of tone loss, also when you pad a mic you change the gain structure so adjustments to the mic pre may be in order to get the tone back.

If your buying from a studio, you never know what that mic has been through. The guy could have used it for a kick mic or it could have been dropped a dozen times for all you know.

I'm not sure what you have available in Sweden or if your prices are the same as ours are here in the States. If you have a gear store with a new u87 go audition it and see if it has the same problems you are describing. If the new one doesn't you can then haggle the studio down on the price and send it in for refurb with the money you save. If the new one does have the problem then you'll know.

[c9-2001]

i own a u87ai. the pad shouldn't make a huge difference in the sound as your saying. the clearity and brightness should still be there. the mid-lows thin out a bit imo though.
i hardley ever use the pad though. the non AI version i can't really comment on b/c its been years since i last used one

if i need a pad i'll engage one on the pre...
if you have a budget to 2300max then eat noodles for a while. you may wanna go to your local pro audio dealer and see if you can rent a mic...

First off, what type of pre are you working with?
what recording medium
what type of converters

you may wanna check out the Blue kiwi. its one hell of a mic
the Rode k2 is a workhorse at its price
At4060 is a vocal workhorse
shure ksm44 / akg 414TL i love for female or rock vocals
one mic that i own that i call the u87 killer..Brauner Valvet, it'll run 2400-2800 though

when i get in the studio i'll pull your page up.. is there a type of sound your looking for?

[mshilarious]

Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but how can a singer possibly need a pad? The U87 without pad is good up to 117dB. If I've done the math right this early in the morn, with sensivity of 28mV/PA, at 117dB, the U87 is at -8dBV (-6dBu), so it shouldn't be clipping a preamp set at low gain. In fact you'd still need 18dB of gain or so to get that peak up to what is likely 0dBFS.

But again how can a singer hit 117dB? Anyone in the room would suffer hearing damage within one song.

A pad should just be a few resistors, which if reasonable quality shouldn't alter tone. However, there are some other possibilities: an improperly designed pad changes the impedance of the mic, which could cause a tonal difference (I doubt this with a Neumann), or a change in preamp settings as a result of the pad changes the sound of the preamp, of which I can't guess the likelihood.

Trying asking a Neumann expert--Klaus Heyne has a forum on PSW.

[popkid]

Thanks for helping me out guys.

1) Well, regarding the pad; I was so surprised because it really was a huge difference in the sound. As I said, with the pad turned on, the mic lost all brilliance. I tried different settings on the preamp but the difference remained.
As mshilarious said, you dont expect that from a Neumann, but then again, what do I know..... I think I´ll do as Slobbermonster said, I´ll pay visit to a store here in Stockholm and see if their U87:s are the same.

2) Need for pad on vocals? The guy that sang when I was auditioning the U87 has a REALLY strong rock type voice and the peaks seemed to distort slightly, even when I adjusted the pre, thats why I put on the pad. I might not need a pad for my voice but then I dont want to buy a defect mic (if thats the case...). I´ve heard that if you´re gonna record drums, and you don´t want even the slightest distortion of the transients from a hard-beating drummer, you`ll need mic´s that are able to handle up to 140db. Vocals are another world of course but is it not possible that a very loud-singing person can exceed 117db at his/hers peaks? I dont know but thats what I heard. Maybe this U87 just was a defect one...

3) My equipment is not pro now. I intend to buy one good thing at the time and then save up for the next. Right now I use a Focusright Penta as pre but intend to buy something else. Any ideas? is the VC1Qcs any good? My converter is an Alesis AI3 which might not be the best either... Soundcard is a RME HDSP9652 which i think is allright.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by popkid

I´ve heard that if you´re gonna record drums, and you don´t want even the slightest distortion of the transients from a hard-beating drummer, you`ll need mic´s that are able to handle up to 140db. Vocals are another world of course but is it not possible that a very loud-singing person can exceed 117db at his/hers peaks?

Well it's very dependent on distance. Right up against a diaphragm, I suppose it's possible. But mics like U87s aren't usually placed that close, especially with a powerful singer.

I dont know but thats what I heard. Maybe this U87 just was a defect one...

I'm wondering that as well.

[popkid]

The guy stood about 25-30 cm:s from the mic, what is that in inches now... say 10-12 inches? Too close for a powerfull singer?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by popkid

The guy stood about 25-30 cm:s from the mic, what is that in inches now... say 10-12 inches? Too close for a powerfull singer?

Well I read that Caruso could produce 95dB at 6 ft; that would be about 110dB at your mic distance. Yeah, that's too close for a strong operatic singer.

[popkid]

ok. Thanks for info.

This doesn´t really concern me, but IF you were to record a very loud singer, and put him a quite a bit away from the mic, what pattern would you use then? Kidney?

[c9-2001]

i don't thats to close at all. i have really strong singers track through my mics as close at 5inches away from the mic with a little compression.
10-12inchs.. if he's still clipping somethings wrong with that mic or the gain was to high.

hell i've tracked crunk artist 5-7inches away from a K2, 414, u87ai and ksm44s with out any clipping.. i doubt the singer was singing louder than some young atlanta guys 5inchs from a mic screaming"You ain't nothing but b!tch" tryin to be the next lil john...

with a penta i wouldn't get a u87... your not gonna love that mic until you get yourself a higher quality pre...
overall your converters and sound card are fine. under $400 the alesis converters sound good. i checked that unit out a few weeks ago needing something to add 8more channels via litepipe.

(edit) i just hooked my u87ai up to a focusrite isa220 with out using eq or compressor.
i have it tracking to my 1010via spdif at 32float/48khz in nuendo 3.
i set the pop filter "Pen" distance from the mic head.. i placed a pen between the pop filter and mic.. thats what 4-4.5inches. i do this sometimes to get the proximity effect on some mics. i was yelling loud and it wan't clipping... don't buy that u87.. its been dropped or something...

[popkid]

ok, c9-2001, i´ll take it as the mic was defect!

So what preamp do u reckon works well with a U87ai? How much do u have to spend to get something that does the mic justice?

[popkid]

Oh, by the way. The US dollar is quite low to the swedish currency right now which makes it cheap for swedes to shop in the US. I´m thinking of ordering a few things and increase your export index . Is there any reliable, cheap, on-line stores that someone can recommend?

[c9-2001]

its a regular combo but it sounds good..
U87ai > Avalon 737sp
U87ai> Focusrite ISA220
U87ai> UA 6176(if you want color)

if you don't wanna channel strip, look at a quality pre with a nice compressor. i love the u87ai > A-designs mp1> distressor combo.if not the mp1, a sebatron pre. it has a very ear pleasing tone...

the mp1 will run you under $1100.. the distressor(i got off ebay) but new they're around 1300 i think.. with the brit mod they're around 1500 i think..
i paid 988 for mine off ebay.. i love it, even though i usually turn to the isa220. i love the way it sounds for a stand out lead vocal

a friend of mine swares by a u87ai> groove tube Vipre> Cranesong trakker...but sometimes his vocals sound a little grainy. i don't know if its the way he mixes or if he wanted it to sound that way..???