How to use the "Haas" effect...

[Myriad_Rocker]

I think that's how you spell it....

Anyway, as I understand it, you copy a track twice...place one 24ms before the original and the other 24ms after the original. This supposedly makes it SEEM like the part is doubled. I tried this last night as a short cut and I don't think I did it right. When I did it, it created some massive flanging or phasing or something very strange. It was robotic sounding almost. Very nasty....

So....what did I do wrong?

[fritzmusic]

Cloning a track has NEVER served a useful purpose for me and the only time I get it to sound good is when I turn one of the doubled track faders down all the way. I've tried phase shifting which only served to add to the chorusy/flaging sound and quite frankly, I think this method utterly sucks although I see it suggested all the time to compensate for a lack of body in sound or whatever. I've found it's simply easier and sounds better to add a subtle doubling effect to the track instead of actually doubling the same track twice. Although, I could be wrong and I just don't know what I'm doing.

I think the only time doubling a track has EVER help my tracks is when it's recorded twice in two different takes using two different mixing methods but then you can open yourself to a whole new universe of potential problems there as well.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Either I didn't explain that well or you were talking about another aspect of doubling. I'm not simply talking about duplicating the track and leave it be...all that will do is increase volume and I don't care to increase volume. I've doubled my current part and panned one 40% left and the other 40% right. This would leave me with essentially two guitar players playing the same part.

From there, I'm looking to fatten up each part....the one on the left and the one on the right. For that wall of guitar rock sound.

[vestast]

Try lowering the delay on the track to somewhere between 4 and 18 ms, and don't use the same delay on each track. I usually put a delay on one of the tracks and not the other, then fool around with the panning.

This technique as it was taught to me by a friend that has been in the industry for 20yrs +. I also hear this effect on many commercial recordings that I listen to.

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Either I didn't explain that well or you were talking about another aspect of doubling. I'm not simply talking about duplicating the track and leave it be...all that will do is increase volume and I don't care to increase volume. I've doubled my current part and panned one 40% left and the other 40% right. This would leave me with essentially two guitar players playing the same part.

From there, I'm looking to fatten up each part....the one on the left and the one on the right. For that wall of guitar rock sound.

Adding a short delay will result in phasing, especially if it is the exact same signal (phasing has to do with timing of sound waves reaching a listener/mic and the additive/destructive properties of waves). You can minimize this by panning hard (100% left and right), but when you sum it to mono, you will still get this effect. Experiment with different delay lengths in both stereo and mono to find out what works best with your song.

A better solution is to track the part mulitple times, sometimes with different guitar/amp/mic combinations. You will likely still get phasing issues, but it you will have more options to work with at mixdown. Also, try tracking parts with a capo or at a different position on the neck. This will add fullness while minimizing phasing.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Here's question....WHY does it result in phasing?

I HATE PHASING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless I want it...and 99.999999999999% of the time I don't want it.

[mcolling]

it is phasing because you're moving one copy of the wave in time, so certain frequencies are reinforced while others are cancelled.

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Here's question....WHY does it result in phasing?

I HATE PHASING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless I want it...and 99.999999999999% of the time I don't want it.

I think, though I am far from an expert, the phasing results from the fact that you're delaying an exact copy of the signal, so the peaks and all frequencies are exact. It's what a phaser does, it slightly delays the signal and sends it along the same path as the original, just slightly behind it. Confusing, but I don't really know how to explain it better.
The only way to do it if you don't want the phasinge effect is to record the track separately, and hard pan them. If you just copy and paste the track and add some delay, the closer they are panned, the more you are going to get the phasing effect.
The technique works well for vocals, if you only use about 10ms between the tracks, but it will phase guitar almost 99.999999999999% of the time.

[Light]

The Haas effect refers to the physical phenomena of your ear deriving more directional information from TIME than from AMPLITUDE. Basically, what it means is that you can place an instrument more precisely in the stereo spectrum through the judicious use of delays than with the pan pot.

Most people can only really locate through amplitude panning (the pan pot) in about five locations; hard left, hard right, middle, and the halfway points between middle and hard left and right. Many amateurs can only locate three locations, and a very few professionals can locate as many as 7-9 locations. Additionally, in order for amplitude panning to be accurate, you must be in the "sweet" spot, or roughly equidistant between the stereo monitors. In fact, the closer to exactly in the middle, the better.

Haas panning, or delay panning, is far more precise. You can get an almost infinite number of locations, which will be perceptible from any location. Even cooler, with delay panning, you can get locations considerably OUTSIDE the spread of your speakers.

The reason this works is that, your ears are (approximately) 8 inches or so apart. Because of this, if a sound originates on the left side of your head, your left ear will hear it a little before your right ear. Your brain relies more on this time information for location than it does the amplitude difference, which is small over an 8 inch span.

To use delay panning, you pan your part hard to the side you want it coming from (let us pretend to the left). You then send the signal to a delay line (hardware, software, I don't care), and pan the returning delay hard to the other side. If both the original signal and the delay are set to the same level, and the delay is set to O ms, the sound is of course panned right down the middle. However, as you start to add delay, the signal will start to move towards the left. EVEN IF YOU LEAVE THE GAIN THE SAME.

It can be pretty shocking. I have vivid memories of my Mix Lab 261 (or what ever the hell the number was) at Berklee. My Teacher, the late, great Robin Coxe-Yelden (I am not sure on that spelling) set it up with two delay lines (Lexicon PCM-61's I believe), one on each side. She was able to move the sound from side to side with just the delays. I usually sat dead center in that class so I could hear everything, but that day I got there late. I am a bit of a skeptic, so I would frequently question her about the physics of things. She would always just setup an experiment (or have me do so), and show us. That day, sitting off to the side, directly in front of the left speaker, she started moving those delay knobs, and the sound was all of a sudden to my LEFT. It sounded like it was coming from the wall I was sitting next to.

She was kind of a witch at times, but Robin was a GREAT teacher, and incredibly knowledgeable. She taught me to understand MS micing, as well as many other phase issues. And to think of them as issues, not problems.

The Haas effect was at the heart of the whole "3D Sound" thing back in the early 1990's, though there was more going on there. The problem was always that, the 3D sound thing always worked better with headphones, as far as the depth perception aspect. I had another teacher, who owned one of the 3D sound companies back then, show us a demo he used for his company. They would sit you in a chair, and put some headphones on your head. There would be music going in the headphones, which was pretty cool in the depth thing, very three dimensional. Then you would hear someone knock the door directly behind you. You turn around to answer the door to find a solid wall. With headphones on, it was amazing. Through normal speakers, it just didn't work.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[rapedbyape]

You could always just play and record the part twice.

[mattamatta]

Show me potato salad!

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by mattamatta

Show me potato salad!

mmmm...potato salad

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I think that's how you spell it....

Anyway, as I understand it, you copy a track twice...place one 24ms before the original and the other 24ms after the original.

At 24ms you're outside the parameters of Haas... the portion of the Haas effect to which you're referring is: "a reflection that arrives at the listener in under 19ms is perceived as part of the original signal"... in other words, at 24ms your brain has percieved this signal as a distinct reflection, at under 19ms the brain percieves this as part of the original signal, thus it phase cancels to portions of the original signal while becoming additive to other portions of the original signal.

It's basic wave theory.

[Steal Sessions]

Originally Posted by Light

The Haas effect refers to the physical phenomena of your ear deriving more directional information from TIME than from AMPLITUDE. Basically, what it means is that you can place an instrument more precisely in the stereo spectrum through the judicious use of delays than with the pan pot.

Most people can only really locate through amplitude panning (the pan pot) in about five locations; hard left, hard right, middle, and the halfway points between middle and hard left and right. Many amateurs can only locate three locations, and a very few professionals can locate as many as 7-9 locations. Additionally, in order for amplitude panning to be accurate, you must be in the "sweet" spot, or roughly equidistant between the stereo monitors. In fact, the closer to exactly in the middle, the better.

Haas panning, or delay panning, is far more precise. You can get an almost infinite number of locations, which will be perceptible from any location. Even cooler, with delay panning, you can get locations considerably OUTSIDE the spread of your speakers.

The reason this works is that, your ears are (approximately) 8 inches or so apart. Because of this, if a sound originates on the left side of your head, your left ear will hear it a little before your right ear. Your brain relies more on this time information for location than it does the amplitude difference, which is small over an 8 inch span.

To use delay panning, you pan your part hard to the side you want it coming from (let us pretend to the left). You then send the signal to a delay line (hardware, software, I don't care), and pan the returning delay hard to the other side. If both the original signal and the delay are set to the same level, and the delay is set to O ms, the sound is of course panned right down the middle. However, as you start to add delay, the signal will start to move towards the left. EVEN IF YOU LEAVE THE GAIN THE SAME.

It can be pretty shocking. I have vivid memories of my Mix Lab 261 (or what ever the hell the number was) at Berklee. My Teacher, the late, great Robin Coxe-Yelden (I am not sure on that spelling) set it up with two delay lines (Lexicon PCM-61's I believe), one on each side. She was able to move the sound from side to side with just the delays. I usually sat dead center in that class so I could hear everything, but that day I got there late. I am a bit of a skeptic, so I would frequently question her about the physics of things. She would always just setup an experiment (or have me do so), and show us. That day, sitting off to the side, directly in front of the left speaker, she started moving those delay knobs, and the sound was all of a sudden to my LEFT. It sounded like it was coming from the wall I was sitting next to.

She was kind of a witch at times, but Robin was a GREAT teacher, and incredibly knowledgeable. She taught me to understand MS micing, as well as many other phase issues. And to think of them as issues, not problems.

The Haas effect was at the heart of the whole "3D Sound" thing back in the early 1990's, though there was more going on there. The problem was always that, the 3D sound thing always worked better with headphones, as far as the depth perception aspect. I had another teacher, who owned one of the 3D sound companies back then, show us a demo he used for his company. They would sit you in a chair, and put some headphones on your head. There would be music going in the headphones, which was pretty cool in the depth thing, very three dimensional. Then you would hear someone knock the door directly behind you. You turn around to answer the door to find a solid wall. With headphones on, it was amazing. Through normal speakers, it just didn't work.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

This was a really nice description. I'll check it out sometimes. Great stuff to play around with... Thanks mate.

[ecktronic]

You need to pan your doubled tracks so they dont phase. Simple. But if you dont want that stereo space effect then you will have to record the part twice. I usually pan to about 9 and 3 o' clock.

[Massive Master]

Well, if you have to, here's what I do (FWIW) with doubling AND trying to "create space" with overheads...

Put it in MONO and make the adjustments. If it's going to be nasty, having it in mono makes it glaringly obvious.

I probably did this with every Metal recording I did in the 90's... Huge sounding drums, even if recorded in the small room (11x15?). Granted, doing this with overheads wasn't as much of a problem as with a duplicated guitar track, but still, that MONO button is your best friend.

[xstatic]

Just as a point of fact... Phasing will occur no matter where they are panned. However, the way we perceive the sound will change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes ofr the worse. Things are either in phase or out and this is independent of panning relationships. The audible (or perceived) result though is not.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Okay, here's the thing. I record direct with a Line 6 Vetta II. I played the part twice already...one is panned 40% right and the other is 40% left. However, I want to make the parts "larger"...meaning more wall of guitars sound.

How can I do this without recording the parts AGAIN?

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Okay, here's the thing. I record direct with a Line 6 Vetta II. I played the part twice already...one is panned 40% right and the other is 40% left. However, I want to make the parts "larger"...meaning more wall of guitars sound.

How can I do this without recording the parts AGAIN?

I don't know anything about the Vetta II, but I've rarely heard a DI guitar part that sounds "Big." They just tend to have that thin, overly-distorted and overly-compressed sound. So, depending on your settings, that may be some of the problem.

As I said in a post above, experiment with different chord voicings on your overdubs (play it an octave higher/lower, different positions, capo, etc.). The "wall of guitar" sound is quite often acheived by using a *gasp* "wall of guitars" technique, which requires that you do track the part multiple times (i.e. >2). Some bands have been known to track guitar parts dozens of times (sometimes with completely different guitars/amps) to really beef up the sound.

Shortcuts, like delay and doubling effects will often sound like just that: effects. If you want the real thing, do the real thing.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by scrubs

I don't know anything about the Vetta II, but I've rarely heard a DI guitar part that sounds "Big." They just tend to have that thin, overly-distorted and overly-compressed sound. So, depending on your settings, that may be some of the problem.

I was thinking the same thing until I researched a lot on the Vetta II and its SPDIF out capability....so I bought one...and I love it. The sound that gets recorded is great!!!! But you can't get the wall of guitars sound with only one part recorded, I don't care what amp you have.

I'm a tube amp junkie and I'm hardcore for tube amps in a live situation and in 99% of all recording situations...but this Vetta II really rocks.

As I said in a post above, experiment with different chord voicings on your overdubs (play it an octave higher/lower, different positions, capo, etc.). The "wall of guitar" sound is quite often acheived by using a *gasp* "wall of guitars" technique, which requires that you do track the part multiple times (i.e. >2). Some bands have been known to track guitar parts dozens of times (sometimes with completely different guitars/amps) to really beef up the sound.

I'm aware of all this...I was asking if there were any known shortcuts...I'm not a recording studio...I'm just a home recorder...with a limited time budget.

Also, I've already got the chorus tripled using the octave method.

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I was thinking the same thing until I researched a lot on the Vetta II and its SPDIF out capability....so I bought one...and I love it. The sound that gets recorded is great!!!!

I'm aware of all this...I was asking if there were any known shortcuts...I'm not a recording studio...I'm just a home recorder...with a limited time budget.

That's cool. If the Vetta sounds good, go with it. I totally understand the budget thing. Wish I had some better tips for you. Just keep experimenting until you stumble upon something that really rocks...Then, write down what you did so you don't forget how you did it.