Confidence in your own stuff...

[Jizz]

Does anyone doubt their own tunes and lyrics?

I can be sitting recording something, then take a break and listen to some music then go back to my tune and think "this is utter shit compared to <insert band name here>"

I get this quite a lot, and also I can't seem to stick to one style. I can be recording something along the lines of Fear Factory or Static-X then I'll think "nah, that tune that sounds in the same mood as Smashing Pumpkins is better".

I go round in circles...doubting each and every step I make.

Right now I'm trying to simplify anything I do and cut the times down to around 2 or 3 minutes and wanting everything to be catchier...but I always hear my favourite tunes popping up again.

AAAAAAARGH!!!

Anyone else let the frustration get in the way of everything or is it just me?

[LimoWreck]

Hi. Yes.

I do have this problem, but in a slightly different way at times.

I think everyone feels like their artistic expression is substandard. I have always thought that's how we continue to learn and get better. The problem comes when you know something is broken, but you don't know what's wrong with it. I have often had to leave works and move on for a while... sometimes coming back to it with fresh eyes can help identify the problem.

If you think everything you do is just fantastic, then you would probably be delusional.

My problem is that I write something and then I think "oh this sounds just like__________". I hate that. I don't want to create anything that is obviously derivitive of someone else. I am comfortable with "influence", but really pissed off when I feel like I've made a cheap copy of someone else.

When I was looking to improve my lyrics, I submitted them as poetry to a group who reviewed it. Their approvals and rejections, I think, were much more objective. I can trust a stranger's judgement better than my own.

[peopleperson]

Take periodical steps away from your work for perspective, trust your first instincts, and overthink nothing.

[Rokket]

I went the other route and stopped listening to the radio or buying cd's. Not good. My musical ideas are dated (80's, look at my age). Part of the reason is that I don't really like the music that is coming out nowadays (I personally feel it all sounds the same, so if someone is saying this sounds like (insert band name), they could probably say about 10 different bands and be right), but also because I can't pin down any person or band who influences me as much as musical genre. I have started listening to all types of music, across a broad spectrum, keeping an open mind. There are some really cool bands out there making music that doesn't get airplay or doesn't fit into the mold. I use that as a way to sneak different influences into my playing, and it keeps me from saying "this sounds like _______". I find that usually I am not satisfied with a tune because of my ability or sloppy playing. If I redo it, and pay attention, I am usually somewhat satisfied. If you are totally happy with what you are doing, and everything sounds good to you, there is probably something wrong. No artist or musician out there is ever truly satisfied with their work. That goes for actors, musicians, artists.... You are not alone in that. Just keep at it, and don't give it up for that reason.

[Rock Star 87]

i clock around 500 or so hours on a song, most of the time more, and by then i a m about satisfied with it. usually i think to myself, i want this song to sound like ______ i.e. "The Sky Is Broken" by Moby, and with that in mind, i go on making a cheap copy. but along the way, i make subtle changes, and in the end, it barely resembles that song. i even clocked 364 hours on a song and then trashed it. at this rate, i'll be 21 b4 the album comes out. basically go with ur instinct. if someone says, that song sounds like (insert song name here) they will problably be the only one who says that. if everybody who hears it says the same thing, u might want to stop listening to that band, like 4ever, and give me all ur CD's. hehe

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by Rokket

I I have started listening to all types of music, across a broad spectrum, keeping an open mind. There are some really cool bands out there making music that doesn't get airplay or doesn't fit into the mold.

That is soooo true. I think there should be a forum on this board that you can post names of bands that impressed you that you wouldn't necessarily hear on the radio, because it is so hard to find good music. It's out there I'm sure. I suppose it would turn into a self-promotion spam factory though, too bad.
I don't mean to hijack your thread Jizz, but Rokket brought up a good point.



..

[Layla Nahar]

Originally Posted by Jizz

Does anyone doubt their own tunes and lyrics?

back to my tune and think "this is utter shit compared to <insert band name here>"

AAAAAAARGH!!!

Anyone else let the frustration get in the way of everything or is it just me?

YES YES YES and more YES.

I'm 39 and I'm finally getting to be able to write like a 12 year old. That is, to be exited about the fact that I am writing at all, and considering anything I have done to be progress, a good effort.

I have spent the last few weeks trying to figure out how I can write without undermining myself. I have two insights to share. One, I got from my boyfreind, who is a *Fantastic* writer and producer. (It is good discipline for me to be around somebody who so easily does exactly what I want to do). He said "You see songs as good or bad. (its more important to) see songs as from the heart or not from the heart"

Another good insight that helps me is something a girl (about 20) told me her boyfriend, also a musician said to her: "You're writing songs to be good. You need to be writing songs because you like to write songs"

I'm *not* saying that you should only write non-commercial songs, or write only to satisfy yourself. What I'm saying is that the weight of your goals right now is far to heavy for the output you can make.

I just wrote a lick the other day, and after it was done I hated it because it sounded like New Order. I am going to tell myself 1) Hey, I wrote a lick! and say thanks to that part of my subconcious that is doing its best to help me realize my dreams. then I am going to 2) find something cool about that lick. In this case, it has an unusual melodic modulation.

We have to start somewhere, and we can't, can't expect our expressive mechanisms to just start at uniquness and perfection. There is a part of us that we can't see, can't contact directly that is struggling really hard to do this. It doesn't need us (read, our Critic) slapping it down for making its best efforts!

One last thing, I find when I hear something really good - say, radiohead, and just feel so despondant about what I can do, I try to remind myself that they built up to that point after years of work. You might want to remind yourself, also, that what is more important than having your stuff sound as good as So&So's, but that it is meaningful to you.

Good luck. Lets keep in touch, perhaps, about our progress?

[Jizz]

Hey people, thanks for the feedback. I dunno about you lot but I'm sort of doing this on my own. I have a brother who plays guitar, but isn't bothered about writing music at all, I never get a real chance to talk to anyone into the creative side of music. I'm mostly surrounded by music lovers but not music writers.

I seem to have modes...

Mode 1 : Picture the audience moving to it. Can they get on the dance floor to it...bang their head, dance, throw their arms around....whatever makes them want to get all the adrenalin pumping through their veins?

Then there's...

Mode 2 : The side of me that wants to express my more melodic laid back side. Stuff that makes me think "yeah, that hits the nerve right there...the invisible something that keeps putting my acoustic guitar in my hand"

I actually considered not listening to music, even my favourite bands, for a while to see if it stopped the downbeat attitude I get at times, but I doubt that is possible (the not listening to CD's part, not the downbeat attitude!)

And no, Rock Star 87...you can NOT get my CD's

[BentRabbit]

Originally Posted by Layla Nahar

He said "You see songs as good or bad. (its more important to) see songs as from the heart or not from the heart"

"You're writing songs to be good. You need to be writing songs because you like to write songs"

Truer words are rarely spoken...

Let the music dictate itself... Don't try and mold it into something you think others say it needs to mirror...

In the early 80's ('Yes Virginia, they had music way back then too...) a band I was with had the good fortune of being totally funded to record and release a 45 (a small vinyl recording normally containing one song per side) because a club owner was moved to tears by a ballad we used to play.
When it came time to record, the bass player (who was the author of the ballad) decided that since radio airplay at the time was being monopolized with bands like The Cars, the song needed to be re-written to 'fit in'... We objected, but it was 'his song'.
Needless to say, it was totally different when finished and the man who financed the production was not happy...

When it was composed to reflect the emotions he was feeling when he wrote it (and performed it), there was magic... When he tried to conform to the masses... Well... Last I heard, he still has about 3 or 4 hundred of those 45's in his attic...

Let the music be the reason you make music...

[Jizz]

I see what you're saying, but I also like to think of the pleasure I could be giving other people, like the club owner you speak of, so I'm always concious of other factors and not just my own selfish satisfaction

[Rokket]

I think one more point about sounding like other bands, when you first pick up your instrument: bass, guitar, piano (maybe "pick up" is the wrong word for that one), violin, whatever... you start learning licks and tricks of your favorite musician or band. How many on here don't know how to play "Stairway" or "Hotel California"? It's a natural thing, and the reason why I listen to off the wall stuff now. I went through the cover band phase and learning all Eddie Van Halen's best riffs (can't play them for shit, but I know them). You eventually get past it and develope your own stlye. Nobody who listens to my stuff can peg it to one artist or another. I'm proud of that. Steve Clark (may he rest in peace) of Def Leppard was once quoted as saying "I don't want to be known as the next Eddie Van Halen; I want to be known as the first Steve Clark." I think he succeeded. I hope I did too.

[LimoWreck]

I can't play "Hotel California", but--much like "The Dude"-- I really hate the Eagles, man.

[Rokket]

Yeah, there are a few of us who can't stand them. I used to love the Eagles, but I got over exposed. When I was in a band we had a sign on the stage saying we do requests, "except for" and listed "Stairway, Hotel California", and a few others that I don't even remember anymore because we wouldn't play them. Had a guy one night that offered to put a Benjamin in the tip jar if we played Stairway. We politely pointed to our sign, but he kept coming back, and raising the ante. Finally, we took $500.00 dollars from this guy and played the worst rendition I have ever had the privillage of hearing: The guitars we playing it in B flat minor, I played my bass in G, the drums were off, and the singer was changing the words and trying to imitate Robert Plant doing the song live. The guy was pissed, but we told him we didn't want to do it. We kept the money, too.

[mshilarious]

It's a good thing to be self-critical; it forces you to become better. If you suppress ALL of your material, then you are going a little too far.

I've had a couple of songs in my head since I was 12. Unfortunately all of them have filthy lyrics but when your own melody sticks in your head, that's when it's time to go to press.

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

It's a good thing to be self-critical; it forces you to become better. If you suppress ALL of your material, then you are going a little too far.

I've had a couple of songs in my head since I was 12. Unfortunately all of them have filthy lyrics but when your own melody sticks in your head, that's when it's time to go to press.

Good point! I have a song I have been writing since I was 15. That was 23 years ago ! I have the melody in my head, but I can't seem to find the damn thing on my fretboard.... One day, I will get it before it gets me.

[Layla Nahar]

Originally Posted by Rokket

I think one more point about sounding like other bands, when you first pick up your instrument: bass, guitar, piano (maybe "pick up" is the wrong word for that one), violin, whatever... you start learning licks and tricks of your favorite musician or band. H

I think *playing* other people's stuff helps sharpen your own style. I think it helps you get that other stuff out of your system.

[apl]

I've gotten to where I'm just doing it, and letting it work itself out. Psycho Surfer was the hardest, but I started it too wierd. I put very little time into each song, I just crank them out. It's just for fun.

If I start taking it seriously and start refining and refining, I'll never do anything new, and I'll always be frustrated.

[Jagular]

Every writer (even pros) write stinkers. Something that sounded cool at the time. Kind of like when I was on Vicodin after knee surgery . The differnence is the better writers recognize when they write a stinker and don't belabor the point. Then they move on to the next one. Another difference is that they also write a lot of great songs. They just write a lot of songs PERIOD.

Keep writing.

For me personally, I write some things that I am not totally happy with. I also write some things that I am extremely happy with. What I think I have gained with experience is the ability to recoginze the difference and the ability to move on to the next song or to take what is good from the one that is not working and shape it in a differnt manner.

It's just a mater of writing enough. I'm not there yet, but I'm working on it.

P.S.

This brought to mind a writer who I respect very much and is EXTREMELY successful commercially. I heard a song he co-wrote with one of the contestants on Nashville Star. The song was dreadful. It happens.

[apl]

Maybe one day I’ll have twenty or thirty to choose from, and I’ll start refining my faves. I once saw a movie about the Stones, and they were working on something over and over and over. It ended up a lot different than when they started.

[rapedbyape]

John Reis of Rocket From the Crypt/Hot Snakes/Sultans/Back Off Cupids/Drive Like Jehu/Pitchfork must have written or been involved with writing at least two hundred and fifty songs in the last fifteen or so years. Personally, I think he has written some of the greatest songs ever, but he's also written some absolute crap. It probably didn't seem that way at the time, and so he just got on with it. Don't dwell on something, if you like it get on with it and record it.

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by Layla Nahar

I think *playing* other people's stuff helps sharpen your own style. I think it helps you get that other stuff out of your system.

Yep, that was my point. You learn from others first, then you become confident enough and establish your own identity.

[topolino]

for me, it's this shakey faith I'm forced to have in myself. First I get an idea, and everything's great; the idea is perfect because it exists only in theory. Then when I try to execute the idea, unforseen realities begin cropping up, and I become very intimate with my work---so much so that I totally lose perspective. I become sick of the work and think the idea was stupid in the first place.

The trick for me is to think good and hard about the idea, before I make a move to execute it. I try to iron it out and forsee as much of the technical realities which will present themselves. and most importantly, I get really excited about the idea and try to see how cool it is, so that I can generate an excitement which will carry me through all the nose-to-the-grindstone stuff.

[Rokket]

Originally Posted by topolino

for me, it's this shakey faith I'm forced to have in myself. First I get an idea, and everything's great; the idea is perfect because it exists only in theory. Then when I try to execute the idea, unforseen realities begin cropping up, and I become very intimate with my work---so much so that I totally lose perspective. I become sick of the work and think the idea was stupid in the first place.

The trick for me is to think good and hard about the idea, before I make a move to execute it. I try to iron it out and forsee as much of the technical realities which will present themselves. and most importantly, I get really excited about the idea and try to see how cool it is, so that I can generate an excitement which will carry me through all the nose-to-the-grindstone stuff.

I think you can get pretty far if you pound it out while you still have the excitement for it. My own CD is still sitting at 5 songs that I like and one that I may shitcan for sanity reasons. I started it over a year ago, and went like hell on the first 4 songs. Then I lost it. I am still trying to get it back (the excitement), but I've learned a hell of a lot from this board and from trial and error, and now I too have become critical to a fault of my work, my abilities, and my songwriting skills. I have to work out my personal demons and get off my ass. The CD is for my mother and she ain't getting any younger waiting on something I thought would be done in a matter of a couple months...

[Louddog]

I read something a long time ago that John Lennon didn't like his own music, he never thought he got it right. I think it's the guys that think there stuff is great that don't evolve and grow as songwriters.

[glynb]

Originally Posted by Louddog

I read something a long time ago that John Lennon didn't like his own music, he never thought he got it right. I think it's the guys that think there stuff is great that don't evolve and grow as songwriters.

Well when you think how big a name he has and then look at his output, I think maybe he had a point (and i say that as a big Lennon/Beatles fan). I don't think he produced anything of much interest after his Imagine album, personaly and icremebr thinking at the time his comeback album in 1980 was rubbish..then he got shot and it becomes masterwork.

Anyway, with regard to songwroting I have self doubt all the time. But i plan to put out my own album this year come what may. i figure it is the best way to REALLY find out if my stuff is any good or not. You can ask a few friends, but they know you and they will not be brutal, so you can't really be sure if they are being kind or really like your tunes. By putting my album out for review by strangers I will know for sure what it's worth.

I think we amateurs (defintion: doing it for love not money) tend to be unconfident about our stuff because we are not signed, maybe not playing live, and this gives you an inferiority complex - ie it can't be any good because I'm not earning a living as a signed musician, which is not the case of course.

The leave it for a while and come back to it thing is the best advice, really is.
Sometimes it becomes immediately clear what the song needs extra, or that you have created a good song that needs no further tinkering (just you couldn't see that at the time).