Rack vs plugin?

[PT76]

What is your opinion(s) on rackmount effects vs plugins for digital recording?

I've got Cubase SL and am looking for a kick ass reverb. I've found a great deal on an outboard verb but I'm wondering if a plugin would be the way to go. Are they significantly different from a sound quality perspective?

Thanks,

Phil

[Hard2Hear]

For reverbs specificaly I say no. Because any racked reverb unit you buy is going to be doing the reverb digitally anyways. Unless you're using a giant tube or plate, its pretty much the same thing.


Dynamics are a different story.

H2H

[Atterion]

I agree. For any effect that is digital it is probably better to go plugin, as any connection with external equipment will introduce a certain amount of noise to the signal. Obviously analog equipment is best in hardware form (although there are some fairly faithful emulations in software). However if you have a computer system that is a little weak or a big project with lots of effects and software instruments, going into an external unit will lift a large burden of your processor.

[PT76]

Ok now here is just a silly, silly question; Is a TC Electronic M3000 complete overkill to have as a dual purpose studio reverb AND used in a guitar rack for rehearsal/gigging?? I'm a slave to tone and I want something transparent and incredible sounding, but is it worth it?? (go easy on me now )

[fraserhutch]

I'll add that in my experience, I have yet to meet a plugin reverb that does it for me - outboard is the way to go.

If you buy cheap hw, then the introduction of noise may be an issue. However, good units generally don't suffer from that problem, and most of them have digital outs anyways.

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by PT76

Ok now here is just a silly, silly question; Is a TC Electronic M3000 complete overkill to have as a dual purpose studio reverb AND used in a guitar rack for rehearsal/gigging?? I'm a slave to tone and I want something transparent and incredible sounding, but is it worth it?? (go easy on me now )

IMHO you will not regret getting this unit at all.

[SonicAlbert]

I have an M3000 and it is a great reverb. It also has some other fx as well. Since it is a dual processor machine you can use reverb *and* another effect at the same time. It is primarily a reverb box though. I've not used it on guitar, but as a studio reverb it is outstanding for pristine reverb effects.

In general, I prefer rack effects, although I do use a few plugins here and there. I'm very picky about them though, as I hate most reverb/compressor/eq plugins I've heard.

If you have good outboard and good converters the business about going DA and then AD again is a total non-issue.

[Hard2Hear]

Have you ever used the Lexicon Pantheon reverb plugin? I really like that one. I was using the reverb that came with my Waves Platinum, but the Lexicon is lots beter. It actually does a few things that the 960L, which I have used also, does.

There are also a couple really GREAT TDM reverb plugins, but you have to use Pro Tools to use them.

One side note. Alot of people say they don't like Pro Tools or have bad things to say about it. One huge factor with Pro Tools is there are about 5 times the amount of plugins that are available only for TDM that are not available on other systems. And they pretty much blow dx and vst plugins away.

H2H

[SonicAlbert]

I have ProTools LE, not TDM or HD, so my experience with the wider world of PT plugins is indeed limited. I've heard them on other systems, but don't have them here to closely audition.

Some of the few plugins I like are the Sonalksis SV-315 compressor, which I just bought, and all the Elemental Audio plugins. Good stuff.

I'm a little tough on plugins partly because I do a torture test on them to evaluate their sound. There are some acoustic piano tracks I recorded a while back that are pristine. recorded on a 9 foot Hamburg Steinway, with a Grace 201 preamp into vintage AKG C12's, directly to disk. I know the recording very well. So any time I audition a plugin I use it on these very exposed tracks that have a wide dynamic range, and breath a lot musically. Most plugins leave a signature mark of some sort, kind of a "processing" sound I call it. They do something undesirable. It is a tough test, I'll admit. On differnet kinds of tracks or a full mix the plugin might pass, but I really want to hear into the sound of it.

That said, I have not heard every plugin out there, or even the majority of them probably. The Sonalksis and Elemental Audio plugins are the first I'd heard (for AU/VST/MAS) that I feel comfortable using.

Also, I tend to put reverb/compression/eq plugs in a different category than delay, filters, modulation, and all the other wilder stuff out there. I think the standards have to be higher when it comes to reverb, compression, and eq, as the results from poor plugins in those categories is more obvious.

This is just a matter of me going with what my ears are telling me. I'm sure for others, doing different kinds of music, plugins will work fine.

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

Have you ever used the Lexicon Pantheon reverb plugin? I really like that one.

I have this plugin, and I have to say, I am not a huge fan. I much prefer my Kurzweil KDFX based effects. The TC M3000 is nicer too, imho.

[Hard2Hear]

What are you using it with? Just curious cause I'm using it with Sonar3 Producer on my laptop and it's the only one the producer I work with most thinks is any good for dx. He owns a PT HD Accel system. You should see the cool stuff for it.

To each his own I guess, cause I've never liked the TC stuff. Then again, when it gets to outboard gear I get to use a 960L. So that's not a fair comparison.

H2H

[SonicAlbert]

I'm not a huge fan of all TC gear, but they certainly have some very brilliant units out there. The M3000 is very nice, and the 1210 chorus box sounds absolutely wonderful.

[termnl]

I use Waves IR-1 and have been pretty happy with it so far.

I would post some mp3s, but Im out at my familys house.....possibly tomorrow.

FWIW, the only things I am doing out of the box are comp and eq. Ive been able to find a decent plugin for everything else.

Merry X-mas.

[LemonTree]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

One side note. Alot of people say they don't like Pro Tools or have bad things to say about it. One huge factor with Pro Tools is there are about 5 times the amount of plugins that are available only for TDM that are not available on other systems. And they pretty much blow dx and vst plugins away.

H2H

When it comes to reverbs I don't think you can touch a stand alone outboard unit so having 5 times the amount of plugins is really a non issue. The only convincing reverb I've heard as a plugin is the waves renaisonce verb. The UAD-1 DSP card is also very useable. I'm old school and probably bias aswell. I record to computer and mix back through a large analog desk using a mix of outboard gear and plugins. You can't beat software gates and some of the compression plugs are good for a certain colour, digital fishphones blockfish springs to mind. Reverb I always go hardwear when I can. It's a CPU hog

<edit> I'll add that even a low cost box like the TC M300 has better verbs than most plugins out there.

[PT76]

Wow great replies guys! I've ended up buying the M3000 and am very excited to get it. I will look into a software gate as you suggested Lemon Tree, are there any to take note of?

Thanks guys and Merry Christmas!

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by PT76

Wow great replies guys! I've ended up buying the M3000 and am very excited to get it. I will look into a software gate as you suggested Lemon Tree, are there any to take note of?

Thanks guys and Merry Christmas!

Merry xmas to you too, and please let us know how you like the M3000!

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by LemonTree

When it comes to reverbs I don't think you can touch a stand alone outboard unit so having 5 times the amount of plugins is really a non issue.
<snip>
<edit> I'll add that even a low cost box like the TC M300 has better verbs than most plugins out there.

This has been my experience as well.