New PA system in church...Help me spend $10,000

[thajeremy]

Im not sure which forum to post this in so i will post it in a couple of them...

I was just asked to help my friend set up the new PA system in his church. He was given a $10,000 to $12,000 budget. I walked off the area of the church and it is about 3200 sq. ft. give or take a little. They already have one 15' main speaker in the center of the ceiling which is powered by I think a 400w amp. They want to keep it there. We are pretty much free to buy what ever we need but have been asked to stick as close as possible to the budget. We have already ordered a 100' snake (12 X 4). There will be a small sound room...about 12 X 8....not very big. The interrior of the church is being re-modeled at the moment so it should be fairly easy to do any wireing.

Here is the layout as told to me by my friend:

mic 1, dynamic: Preacher
mics 2 & 3: condensers: Choir
mics 4,5,6: stage left, channel 4 will be the drums, they will be mixed down into a 4 channel mixer and into channel 4 of the main mixer, 2 dynamic(one bass, one guitar)
mics 7,8,9: stage right: 1 condensor(piano) 2 dynamic(organ, vocal)
mics 10 - 12: 3 dynamic (vocals)

we also will need one choir monitor, and I think one monitor on each side of the stage will be enough for the guitar, bass, and drums on one side, and piano/organ on the other...so a total of 3...but that can change if we need more.

Im not sure if each mic fits the application in this situation and I told him that I would post here and get as many ideas as I could before we go to Sam Ashe tomorrow and start buying stuff. We need to buy everything as soon as possible; mixer(s), power amps, mics, cables, any processors we need such as compressors or EQ's....EVERYTHING.

We are looking at the Mackie CFX16
2 PV900 power amps
one AKG C1000 for guitar
bass probably direct
Shure PG drum mic package (nothing fancy)
still up in the air is the condensors for the piano and the choir
I think the organ will be direct out
also..im not sure if we need a dynamic or condensor for the preacher

Think i would need compressors? how bout an EQ?

Please...any suggestions for any alternatives???

I know this is a lot...i hope i didnt leave anything out...if i did...ill probably realize it after i submit this...ill fix it then...

Thanks for any help
Jeremy

[deepwater]

As you know I'm a sound contractor so I can really point you in the right direction. I work with churches all over the Southeastern US. I need to know the size of the church, ceiling height, style of music and instruments, number of choir member, type of church (ie. Baptist, Lutheran) and how many members.

[Alexi]

please dont use c1000's

[thajeremy]

im not sure about the ceiling hight or the number of choir members. It is a Baptist church. Im not a member of the church by my friend is and he asked for my help so Id have to speak to him to get all the info you need. as far as instruments, accoustic guitar, electric bass, and a small set of pearl drums...really small, but the average set ( snare, kick, 3 toms, highhats, and one cymbal) not sure the model or anything. as far as style...once again, cant help right now but i will find out everything i can as soon as i can. we are planning to go to a music store tomorrow and get as much as we can as far as stuff we KNOW we need such as cables, power amps and maybe a few mics...maybe even the mixer.

[thajeremy]

Originally Posted by Alexi

please dont use c1000's

any reason you can give? I have heard good stuff about it...

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

We have already ordered a 100' snake (12 X 4). There will be a small sound room...about 12 X 8....not very big. The interrior of the church is being re-modeled at the moment so it should be fairly easy to do any wireing.

If you can run wiring in the walls & floor, then forget about the snake, just hardwire everything. You don't want to have to bother with long cable runs going to the snake.

[thajeremy]

i am looking at some prices on rolls of cable, we are considering using custom plates. 2 on each side of the Pulpit for the instruments..so a total of 4 XLR's on each side. one plate in the center for the Preacher's mic and just running the choir's OH's straight into the ceiling because they will hang down anyway.

would this do the trick for the mics or would i need something bigger?

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...1003&CID=M/S/C

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

i am looking at some prices on rolls of cable, we are considering using custom plates. 2 on each side of the Pulpit for the instruments..so a total of 4 XLR's on each side. one plate in the center for the Preacher's mic and just running the choir's OH's straight into the ceiling because they will hang down anyway.

would this do the trick for the mics or would i need something bigger?

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...1003&CID=M/S/C

You can buy bulk snake cable, run that to a junction box near the pulpit or some other central location, then split off single cables from there.

Actually 20AWG is pretty heavy mic cable. You can get away with 22 or 24AWG for installed sound, since the wire ain't going anywhere.

You will also need speaker wire, 14 or 16 AWG, depending on how long your runs are.

[thajeremy]

well...if im not using the snake...then i can have the power amps in the sound room correct (I was told not to run power through a snake)? so what size speaker cable would i need to run say 75 feet away?

[boingoman]

You would have a much easier time if this was posted in just one place. You could read all the answers at once.

I know you are in a hurry. Probably too much of a hurry.

[boingoman]

You can get special mic cable for install work that is much thinner and more durable than regular stuff. It is also cheaper.

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

well...if im not using the snake...then i can have the power amps in the sound room correct (I was told not to run power through a snake)? so what size speaker cable would i need to run say 75 feet away?

75 feet is pretty long. Use 12 gauge. That gives you about 2% power loss into an 8 ohm box. Pretty good.

[Alexi]

i just think the c1000 sounds horrible, a 451 would be better

[dcarlton]

Originally Posted by deepwater

As you know I'm a sound contractor so I can really point you in the right direction. I work with churches all over the Southeastern US. I need to know the size of the church, ceiling height, style of music and instruments, number of choir member, type of church (ie. Baptist, Lutheran) and how many members.

Ok, I've just got to know. Why would Lutherans need different equipment than, let's say, Baptists? What about Mormons or even Seventh Day Adventists?

Doug

[sile2001]

Originally Posted by dcarlton

Ok, I've just got to know. Why would Lutherans need different equipment than, let's say, Baptists? What about Mormons or even Seventh Day Adventists?

Doug

Actually, they quite possibly could. While there are notable exceptions to the rule, there are general factors of the needs in the service that are specific to different denominations, and there can be very wide differences in what is considered acceptable in both volume and musical style. At a Baptist church I've been to frequently, each service is almost exactly the same format as the one before it. Welcome, choir comes out and sings, short story of something or other, special music, message, final closing song, announcements, prayer, the end. On the other hand, at the Evangelical Free church I go to most of the time, the service can be drastically different from one week to the next, requiring much more dynamic and versatile equipment and configuration.

[sile2001]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

any reason you can give? I have heard good stuff about it...

A few places and people like the C1000, but you will find that most places on the net (and very specifically here), the C1000 is very much frowned upon. The experience has been that in almost every application, the C1000 has sounded extremely sterile and harsh. In every thread I've seen so far regarding the C1000, it was found that some other equally priced (or even cheaper) mic could do a much better job.

[Alexi]

or for a more pricy mike take an beyer mce530, it is an awesome mic highly underrated

[crazydoc]

Originally Posted by deepwater

...and how many members.

And this would be how many potential customers there might be for audio and sound equipment?

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by crazydoc

And this would be how many potential customers there might be for audio and sound equipment?

I used to do this kind of work. Word of mouth rules! Many installs came from music store customers in churches, and many customers from satisfied parishes.

[crazydoc]

And deepwater needs to know this so he can help thajeremy set up the new PA system?

[boingoman]

Originally Posted by crazydoc

And deepwater needs to know this so he can help thajeremy set up the new PA system?

If you were setting up a sound system for a club, wouldn't you want to know how many people were going to be in the audience? I suppose you could "wing it" but my experience in church applications is that those who "wing it" don't "fly" very far.
I know why you are jumping all over deepwater. In this case there is another reason. As a contractor, I wouldn't dare spec a system without seeing and hearing the place first. Any resulting sales would just be the natural result of doing a good job.
But for the most part, I'll let him hang himself.

[Flatpicker]

Originally Posted by crazydoc

And deepwater needs to know this so he can help thajeremy set up the new PA system?

Yep. Believe it or not, sound system installers down here in the south tend to think of church size in terms of members as much or more than the actual dimensions of the building. He needs to know how big the choir is too. All legitimate questions.

You're not turning into a "spam cop" too, are you doc?

[crazydoc]

Originally Posted by boingoman

If you were setting up a sound system for a club, wouldn't you want to know how many people were going to be in the audience?

I admit to complete ignorance in setting up sound systems. I agree that knowing the number of bodies out there absorbing sound would be important regarding reverb damping types of things. If he meant "how many people are usually at a service?", that's appropriate, but may not have anything to do with the number of church members.

[Flatpicker]

Originally Posted by crazydoc

...If he meant "how many people are usually at a service?", that's appropriate, but may not have anything to do with the number of church members.

If you just went by how many people are usually at a service, you'd come up short on Christmas and Easter.

[timboZ]

Don't mic the guitars. Go DI on every thing you can.
Use PZM's on the piano with the lid closed. Try to get as many people on headphones as you can. Keep the stage volume as low as possible.
Put the drums in a GOBO and the drummer on headphones (If you can get the drummer to play with rods that will help to keep stage volume down).

It will make it a lot easer for you to mix the slow quiet worship songs.

Get the pastor a countryman E6 mic.