New PA system in Church...help me spend $10,000

[thajeremy]

I was just asked to help my friend set up the new PA system in his church. He was given a $10,000 to $12,000 budget. I walked off the area of the church and it is about 3200 sq. ft. give or take a little. They already have one 15' main speaker in the center of the ceiling which is powered by I think a 400w amp. They want to keep it there. We are pretty much free to buy what ever we need but have been asked to stick as close as possible to the budget. We have already ordered a 100' snake (12 X 4). There will be a small sound room...about 12 X 8....not very big. The interrior of the church is being re-modeled at the moment so it should be fairly easy to do any wireing.

Here is the layout as told to me by my friend:

mic 1, dynamic: Preacher
mics 2 & 3: condensers: Choir
mics 4,5,6: stage left, channel 4 will be the drums, they will be mixed down into a 4 channel mixer and into channel 4 of the main mixer, 2 dynamic(one bass, one guitar)
mics 7,8,9: stage right: 1 condensor(piano) 2 dynamic(organ, vocal)
mics 10 - 12: 3 dynamic (vocals)

we also will need one choir monitor, and I think one monitor on each side of the stage will be enough for the guitar, bass, and drums on one side, and piano/organ on the other...so a total of 3...but that can change if we need more.

Im not sure if each mic fits the application in this situation and I told him that I would post here and get as many ideas as I could before we go to Sam Ashe tomorrow and start buying stuff. We need to buy everything as soon as possible; mixer(s), power amps, mics, cables, any processors we need such as compressors or EQ's....EVERYTHING.

We are looking at the Mackie CFX16
2 PV900 power amps
one AKG C1000 for guitar
bass probably direct
Shure PG drum mic package (nothing fancy)
still up in the air is the condensors for the piano and the choir
I think the organ will be direct out
also..im not sure if we need a dynamic or condensor for the preacher

Think i would need compressors? how bout an EQ?

Please...any suggestions for any alternatives???

I know this is a lot...i hope i didnt leave anything out...if i did...ill probably realize it after i submit this...ill fix it then...

Thanks for any help
Jeremy

[boingoman]

Why such a rush?
It could be a very exciting project to be a part of. But make sure you do it right. It is a lot of someone else's money, and messing it up would be bad and expensive.

My first suggestion would be to take a deep breath and not order anything for a couple of days. Talk to the people laying out the money to see what they are looking for.
In fact, see if you can return the snake. What happens if they decide they need a few more channels in a year? Expandability is something to think about. Buying only what you need at present is always a losing move in these situations. That goes for the mixer, as well.

I'm betting you are trying to set this up for Christmas or New Years, and IMO you are biting off more than you can chew, if that is the case.
Take a few hundred bucks and hire a well-known, reputable sound contractor/installer for some input. They will also be able to help with any wiring recommendations, and are familiar with local building codes. A lot of things change when you make the change from "portable" to "installed" systems. When talking to a contractor, ask for a list of systems they have done and talk to the customers.
Install guys may be familiar with products you aren't. For instance, stage pockets might work well for you. No box on stage. Does the preacher move around? Maybe consider a wireless.

Is that one main speaker going to be for reinforcing the band as well, or is it just for the preacher? It may work for speech, but if it is up on the ceiling, the delay between the band and speaker will almost certainly make it sound very bad.
Is it adequate for that purpose at present, or does that need to be addressed as well?
Is the vocal coverage for the preacher clear and clean at present, in other words. If they are looking for an improvement in that area, more than just replacing some old gear may be needed. His church may not be too happy laying out 10 Gs to find out the preacher sounds like he has a pillow on his mouth, or the people in the back can't hear him anymore after the redesign.
Is the remodeling going to change any structures in the church? Are the wall coverings going to change in density or composition? Changes like this may require you to start from scratch, acoustically.
When starting a project like this, you need to know, not "think". Is the organ direct out, or not? Is it a pipe organ, or electronic?
How is the electrical system?
If you have a set of main speakers, is the church OK with having them on stands, or are they going to be flown?
Is ther somewhere local to rent some stuff to try out, or rent speaker stands if you need to have the mains in stands for awhile?

There are a lot of things to consider and questions to answer before laying out that kind of dough.

[frederic]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

mic 1, dynamic: Preacher
mics 2 & 3: condensers: Choir
mics 4,5,6: stage left, channel 4 will be the drums, they will be mixed down into a 4 channel mixer and into channel 4 of the main mixer, 2 dynamic(one bass, one guitar)
mics 7,8,9: stage right: 1 condensor(piano) 2 dynamic(organ, vocal)
mics 10 - 12: 3 dynamic (vocals)

Organ - direct out.
Vocalists - condensers as they are close.
Lecturns - dynamic lecturn mics
Piano - PZM mic
Choir - two PZM mics

Bass/guitar - direct out boxes.

I set up a large church this way... I took the plates off the PZM mics and replaced them with 1' square, 1/4" lexan, which is unbreakable and you can see through them. The sound was excellent, and all this ran through a simple analog 16-ch mackie mixer, 4 buss.

Stereo L/R fed the patrons, buss 1/2 was foldback for the choir, and bus 3/4 was shared by the drummer, guitarist, bassist, etc via a small rackmount headphone amp. We used large QSC amps, affordable for the wattage, and used existing speakers on either side of the alter, built into the walls.

Draw the alter out, and the placement, you want to make sure you don't have too much overlap with the mics, and pzms are great catch-all mics.

we also will need one choir monitor, and I think one monitor on each side of the stage will be enough for the guitar, bass, and drums on one side, and piano/organ on the other...so a total of 3...but that can change if we need more.

Im not sure if each mic fits the application in this situation and I told him that I would post here and get as many ideas as I could before we go to Sam Ashe tomorrow and start buying stuff. We need to buy everything as soon as possible; mixer(s), power amps, mics, cables, any processors we need such as compressors or EQ's....EVERYTHING.

We are looking at the Mackie CFX16
2 PV900 power amps
one AKG C1000 for guitar
bass probably direct
Shure PG drum mic package (nothing fancy)
still up in the air is the condensors for the piano and the choir
I think the organ will be direct out
also..im not sure if we need a dynamic or condensor for the preacher

Think i would need compressors? how bout an EQ?

Please...any suggestions for any alternatives???

I know this is a lot...i hope i didnt leave anything out...if i did...ill probably realize it after i submit this...ill fix it then...

Thanks for any help
Jeremy[/QUOTE]

[wheelema]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

mic 1, dynamic: Preacher
mics 2 & 3: condensers: Choir
mics 4,5,6: stage left, channel 4 will be the drums, they will be mixed down into a 4 channel mixer and into channel 4 of the main mixer, 2 dynamic(one bass, one guitar)
mics 7,8,9: stage right: 1 condensor(piano) 2 dynamic(organ, vocal)
mics 10 - 12: 3 dynamic (vocals)

we also will need one choir monitor, and I think one monitor on each side of the stage will be enough for the guitar, bass, and drums on one side, and piano/organ on the other...so a total of 3...but that can change if we need more.

Im not sure if each mic fits the application in this situation and I told him that I would post here and get as many ideas as I could before we go to Sam Ashe tomorrow and start buying stuff. We need to buy everything as soon as possible; mixer(s), power amps, mics, cables, any processors we need such as compressors or EQ's....EVERYTHING.

We are looking at the Mackie CFX16
2 PV900 power amps
one AKG C1000 for guitar
bass probably direct
Shure PG drum mic package (nothing fancy)
still up in the air is the condensors for the piano and the choir
I think the organ will be direct out
also..im not sure if we need a dynamic or condensor for the preacher

Think i would need compressors? how bout an EQ?

I can see your needing to run the cables immediately, and when you do, run more (lots more) than you need. Where you think you need one, run three.

Speakers are incredibly important. Please solicit professional help for this part of your project. We have so many problems with monitors and speakers at our church.

I would NOT use DI for the bass and guitar, because you WILL get visiting musicians with their own amps. Provide a DI channel if you want, but building a box to mic the amp gives you so much more flexibility.

We have a Mackie CFX-12, and the preamps, well... they suck. And as we have gotten into recording the service onto a DAW so that we can cut CDs for the congregation, we are now longing for more. We are looking into a Mackie Onyx 1640 (16 channel, 4 buss) that has better preamps, and Firewire connectivity to the DAW.

I would provide a wireless boom mic for the preacher and the choir director, as well as a dynamic on the lectern.

Good luck!!!