A real neewbie question.

[Chewie]

I am new to all this. What I would like to do is have a room to record vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe electric. What I have is an old house with concrete steps. I think the steps themselves are just concrete. At one side beneath is blocked with bricks and plastered. Then other end is open.
What I would like to know is where I would research how to do this VERY cheaply. I am just looking to be pointed in the direction of the cheapest solution.
I am only asking because the rest of these posts are about professional, expensive solutions. I’m just looking for something simple that will mostly keep sounds out and also a little from getting out.

[Innovations]

Am I to presum that you are trying to record under the steps? The fact of the matter is that most of what we are talking about here is not professional solutions. The fact though is that in sound isolation cheap and effective are mutually exclusive.

[Chewie]

Yes I meant under the steps. Well I don't need perfection. I just want to improve it a little bit. I talking about technology up to egg carton level. I would really just like a few simple tips and hopfully a link where I could read more. Btw there is a window on the side with the bricks.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Chewie

I am new to all this. What I would like to do is have a room to record vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe electric. What I have is an old house with concrete steps. I think the steps themselves are just concrete. At one side beneath is blocked with bricks and plastered. Then other end is open.
What I would like to know is where I would research how to do this VERY cheaply. I am just looking to be pointed in the direction of the cheapest solution.
I am only asking because the rest of these posts are about professional, expensive solutions. I’m just looking for something simple that will mostly keep sounds out and also a little from getting out.

Well 1st of all we need to know just what it is you're looking to do.

I assume that there's an actual room underneath those stairs you refer to - so the basement runs under those - is this correct?

If yes - then describe the room to us - and some more about that window.

You also should let us know what you're playing - an idea of how loud it is - and if you're trying to stop noise just from the outside world - or from inside the house.

If from the outside world - explain how close to the road - your neighbors, etc.

Understand - what Innovations said is true..... isolation and cheap don't go hand in hand.

There isn't any egg carton level info we can give you to isolate because that it just a myth - it doesn't exist - so no one can tell you how to do something that won't work in the 1st place and have you succeed at your goal.

However - if all you want is a little bit of isolation - then standard construction just might get you where you need to be.

Rod
Rod

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey Rod, remember now. NO questions. Just answers. Maybe we can come up with a standard sticky that we can cut and paste. You know ........
Floors, ceiling, walls ....2 leaf systems.........
(1)Mass...insulated airgap...decoupled mass......more mass.......

did I mention.........
(2)Mass...insulated airgap...decoupled mass......more mass.......

or how about......
(3)Mass...insulated airgap...decoupled mass......more mass.......

and don't forget....
(4)Mass...insulated airgap...decoupled mass......more mass.......

and if you REALLY want isolation......
(1)Mass...insulated airgap...decoupled mass......more mass.......and more mass...........and if you have the budget.......more mass.......lots more mass..


oh....I almost forgot the details.....

caulking.........caulking........caulking......caulking ....and MORE caulking!!

Doors: SOLID CORE......SOLID CORE.........SOLID CORE.....SOLID CORE....
.....Mass......more mass.........and lets see......oh.....more mass, and then again, more mass.........

Er.......now that you have a 500 lb door, framing and jambs to hold it.....MASSIVE...rabited...able to jumb tall buidings in a single bound...don't forget TWO decoupled jambs for double doors!
oh.....did I mention HEAVY DUTY BALL BEARING CAM LIFT HINGES.....they're
cheap.......get em at Homedepot
And around the doordouble doors for decoupled walls)
seals........seals..........seals ...... seals..............seals..... and.......more seals.......oh yea......seals between the decoupled jambs at the airgap.....
and lets not forget.....THRESHOLDS!! YEA YEA...........good ole thresholds....
you know...those things that most everyone forgets about untill they've hung a 500lb door, and then have to remove it to trim it for the threshold
Especially cam lifted thresholds.........

..good ole flyin by the seat of your pants...hindsight construction......what do you mean the door is sagging.......I told you your framing had to be massive....the door is dragging on the floor???? oh.....didn't I tell you about thresholds...especially the cam lifts.....yea, they have to have clearance....hmmmmmm, have to take the door down huh?......tear out the jambs and rebuild the framing huh.....too bad er.....what do you mean your structure above is sagging from the ceiling weight? I told you to check those joist dimensions and span.........oh well.....its your money. You say you forgot to figure in the carpet thickness? hmmmm, guess you'll have to take the door down again....
and .DIFFERENT FLOOR HEIGHTS!! What do you mean......OH......3/4" wood floor on one side and 3/8" carpet on the other......didn't I tell you to watch for that? Musta slipped my mind.......sorry. ....hmmm......where was I......oh yea


Ok......whats that? You say you have isolation but you can't breath? hmmm, didn't I mention ventilation? Damn Alzhiemers....ok, you gotta tear open the ceiling now to put in ducts.........Doggone it....what do you mean I forgot to tell you that they can't connect to both rooms..........CAN"T YOU THINK FOR YOUR SELF!!!! What do you mean its 105 degrees in there.....Your in TEXAS!! Didn't you know your equipment,people and lights generate heat?????? Why didn't you think about HVAC???? Now your gonna have to tear out that wall to
build an enclosure for the unit. Damn........do I have to tell you EVERYTHING!!
Ok...that does it. I guess a sticky won't do it. LETS WRITE A BOOK!!!

fitZ

I forgot.......electrical.......cabling......base.......lighting.......er...stucture prep for soffits....er....trim.......er......grills....er......bass trapping......er ....DAMN! I must be a complete moron.......how could I forget.......PERMITS..CODES INSPECTIONS..!!! what a dunce.

[frederic]

Rick, use foam, it solves all problems.

[knightfly]

Nah, Rick's having another meltdown; the foam would just get all sticky from the heat, (hey, there's the "sticky", we're gettin' there :=) and then it would burst into flame and ignite the carpet and egg cartons, not to mention that if the egg cartons are used ones there's that bad burning egg smell, plus all those egg cartons would kill the sound so well ??Q? that nobody'd even HEAR poor Rick's inflamed bleats for help, (yeah, right)

Sorry, Rick, just flickin' ya fer fun; this is why I don't post here so much any more - no "stickies" to point to without going to a different forum...

Chewie, after all the BS and kidding, listen to Rod - he's built more stuff than Napster allowed to be stolen and he will NOT, repeat NOT, tell you something that won't work. If you're not willing to(or can't) pay for it, that's another thing - but what he tells you WILL work if you pay attention - and trust me, he will NEVER recommend egg cartons, carpet (other than on some floors), foam (at least, not for sound isolation - it doesn't work, period) or things that will disintegrate a year down the road - in other words, Rod will not waste your money for you like some self-proclaimed experts, because he IS an expert. Nuff said... Steve

[fitZ2]

Rick, use foam, it solves all problems.

You WOULD rain on my parade wouldn't you Damn, now the secret is out. HOW COULD YOU!!
You've RUINED EVERYTHING now frederic. I mean, damn, all the royalties from the book out the window...er.....ah.....hmmmm. Better keep my mouth shut.

Nah, Rick's having another meltdown; the foam would just get all sticky from the heat,

MELTDOWN? GEEEEEEEEEZ, can't a guy have a little fun around this place. Talk about hot. It's plain SUFFOCATING in here sometimes. Like an ole quiet library......HEY!(echo echo echo) WAKE UP!! Its STIFFLING in here.....(sweat dripping sounds) geeezus...no one here. Hmmm, guess it doesn't do anygood anyway. might as well go home.
fitZ

[Chewie]

Ok. Just got home last night so I can give you guys a few more details. It's a 4 x4 from. It's 6 feet at the highest point and maybe a foot less a the lowest. The walls are 4 inch bricks right aroung except for the part facing the house where there is nothing. The floor is solid concrete and the steps are also concrete. The window is 3 feet high and 1 foot wide and it's two louvres. I might just replace the window with blocks.

Now I never said basement. It's a two floor house. The steps are on the outside and lead to the upper level (duh!). So where it attachesto the house, underneath, there is a space. There is wall supporting the steps in the middle creating two rooms. The larger is the one I described.

What I most want to do with the room is vocals. To that end noise coming in is the priority. But I was also think maybe use it as an amp room and if I could somehow fit drums in there also those. In the case of drums definatly noise getting out is a problem but it's not a priority, vocals are.

The main issue is the gaping space on the side facing the house on the inside. It will need some sort of door so I could get in but also be able to be closed and not get sound in.

If it comes to drums it's a private property. The closest neighbours are maybe 25feet away.

I know this seems so stupid to people such s yourselves but I rather get cuss and a little info than no info.

[Chewie]

Can anyone gimme n idea for a door for this place. At least a link. That's all I really need, a poiter to the right location.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I know this seems so stupid to people such s yourselves but I rather get cuss and a little info than no info.

Such as ourselves? We are no different than you chewy. Most of us started out with questions here for the more enlightend and experienced members to answer. I don't consider your questions stupid at all. We all want to know what we do not understand. To that end, I will try to help you, although your explaination of the space is still a little vague. Is there any way you can post a picture of your floor plan?
As to the door, there are some things you need to understand. First, room isolation is only as good as its weakest link. If you put a door assembly in that has 10 times more transmission loss ability, than your floor, walls and ceiling, the whole shell will average to the weakest link. In other words, unless ALL the components of an interior shell have close to the same STC(sound transmission class) rating, then it is a waste of money to use one expensive component(door) that has a high STC, while the rest of the components have a poor STC rating. Does that make sense. Therefore, it is imperitive to apply your budget across the whole spectrum of the components to achieve the highest most balanced rating you can afford. And even then, there are many details that must be addressed, or you will NOT achieve the STC goal that your budget allows. There are other things that have a bearing on this success also. Simply saying you want to "soundproof" for vocals, and possibly drums, tells us nothing. Each situation requires different solutions. For instance.
If you were to build an isolated vocal booth in the country, with little environmental noise, it would be very different than building a booth to isolate drums from a neighbor directly above. That is why we need to know what the environmental noise around your house is like . Is there loud trucks, cars, busses, trains, aircraft, people, barking dogs, guns, foot traffic.......anything that is above normal residential noise. Even my house has a highway over a mile away, but can CLEARLY be heard at any time of the day. I have a friend whose backyard is adjacent to a 6 lane freeway, and it is impossible to isolate his space from truck rumble. There are trains over TWO miles away, but horns can be heard LOUDLY within a room built for "isolation". Same with helicopers. His mics pic it up CLEARLY. Soooo, this is what we are dealing with. Deciphering what you REALLY need, is dependent on REALLY knowing what type of sound is transmitting into the space. Otherwise, we are spitting in the wind. Even knowing, we are guessing to a certain extent. Unless of course, you have a budget that will allow for a MASSIVE and DECOUPLED room within a room construction from the outset. Then it doesn't matter. Now, if you have train tracks in your back yard, forget it. There is nothing that you could do unless you are BILL GATES Even then, it would take pro engineering and a HUGE budget to accomplish. With that said, fill us in on what you are up against, and post a pic of the plan if you can. Simply telling you where you can find a door, will NOT help you. BTW, a solid core door is the least you need, and can be found at ANY home improvement products retail store.
fitZ

[Chewie]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

If you were to build an isolated vocal booth in the country, with little environmental noise, it would be very different than building a booth to isolate drums from a neighbour directly above.

Well, the plan is for a vocal booth. I was just thinking of the possibilities. I’m not even sure what kinda budget I’m ready to go with. I was just figuring you guys would give me the ideas and I would see what’s possible. The important thing is vocals but if I could get the room good for drums that would be better.
I’m in a quite neighbourhood. There is a main road where you could probably hear horns and cars driving fast. My grandparents are upstairs but I could always just wait for them to be out. No other noise really. The neighbours shouldn’t really complain though unless it’s after dark but it would be nice to record in the night. Especially for micing my amp (metal stuff.)

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

With that said, fill us in on what you are up against, and post a pic of the plan if you can. Simply telling you where you can find a door, will NOT help you. BTW, a solid core door is the least you need, and can be found at ANY home improvement products retail store.

I can’t really get a floor plan. It’s an old house that my grandfather built when he was a boy. But if you tell me what info you need to get the floor plans I could ask my Dad because he seems to know a bit about the house.
As the the solid core door. Just ask for that? It’s just a solid door? I’d also need a frame or something I’m thinking. I don’t know about these kind things but if you tell what we need, once again, my Dad’s knowledge should be able to make it work. So if you could tell me what else you need to know or to clarify what I already said just tell me.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I’m not even sure what kinda budget I’m ready to go with. I was just figuring you guys would give me the ideas and I would see what’s possible.

Hello Chewie. Well, we can tell you how to build a freestanding vocal booth, but if the existing structure is to be part of the assembly, then we need information on what exists and to what extent you can go to. For instance, if you said you wanted to use RC(Resiliant Channel) over existing drywall, we would have to tell you this will not work. You would either have to cut holes in or remove the existing drywall. But if you can't do that, what is the point of telling you. Understand. Also, how can we tell you what and how to isolate your "room", with no understanding of exactly what you are dealing with. Every situation is different. For intance, here is ALL we know.

..........."What I have is an old house with concrete steps. I think the steps themselves are just concrete. At one side beneath is blocked with bricks and plastered. Then other end is open." Hmmmmmmmmmm, plastered? Are you talking INSIDE under the steps Or outside is plastered
And open to what? The outdoors? Are these steps enclosed, or do they encroach into the space below? See what I mean.

............."It's a 4 x4 from. It's 6 feet at the highest point and maybe a foot less a the lowest. The walls are 4 inch bricks right aroung except for the part facing the house where there is nothing. The floor is solid concrete and the steps are also concrete. The window is 3 feet high and 1 foot wide and it's two louvres. I might just replace the window with blocks.".....
4x4 from? 4x4 what and what exactly do you mean by "from"? And THEN.....6 feet at the highest point where? and maybe a foot less at the lowest? Lowest in relationship to what? Hmmmm, and 4" bricks right "aroung" except for the part facing the house where there is nothing."WHAT is facing nothing? Shall I go on?........ok, what about this?
...."The steps are on the outside and lead to the upper level (duh!). So where it attachesto the house, underneath, there is a space. There is wall supporting the steps in the middle creating two rooms. The larger is the one I described.".........Ok, the way I picture this is, the entry steps must lead up to a porch or landing of some kind. Is this correct? And under this landing is a room of sorts, that has been divided in to TWO spaces, correct. EITHER, the wall supporting these steps, MUST be a wall below the landing, and the dividing wall is simply a partition, OR the exterior wall of the house must support it, with an opening through this wall, below the stairs, into these spaces. Somehow, the dividing wall must divide this opening into two open doorways, or something to that effect. And one of these spaces is open to the outside world at one end of the steps? Regardless, you want to use the enclosed space with an open doorway, and this is the opening you were asking about the door for, correct? Sheeeeeeeeeezus. So this means, you can see the underside of the stairs, correct? But the end that encloses the stairs is brick, and this space has a concrete floor, right? What is the wall that divides the space made of? What is the wall that the doorway is framed in made of? What supports the concrete stairs, if you see the underside of them? Or does a brick wall hide the underside of the stairs? And this space is only 4x4? 4x4 what? yards, meters, feet, miles? See what I mean? Well, thats all I have time for at the moment. See if you can draw a PLAN of the existing space and give some dimensions. Of course YOU have to measure everything to do so. OR take some pics and post them. We can't read your mind, or interprete your descriptions unless they are precise. I bet 4 people will give you 4 different interpretations of your description. Sooooo, do what you can and I'll be back.
fitZ

[Chewie]

Let me try this again. Imagine a regular house of two floors. There are steps on the side of the house. Instead of the steps just being there, there are bricks below the steps to enclose the space. By this I mean there are walls under step so that you cannot see underneath the steps. Where the steps are attached to the house it opens into the house at the bottom level. Meaning you can get under the steps from inside the house on the bottom but the outside has the brick walls. Presently it's being used as a storage area.
There is 4 x 4 feet floor. Concrete plastered walls, on the inside, 6 feet high. Floor and ceiling are cast in concrete.
The steps are enclosed at the bottom. Above it is exposed to the outside world. The room is closer to the highest part of the steps. So one wall is below the highest step and is 6 feet. The other wall opposite is shorter because the steps are coming down. This wall divdes the space below the steps into two rooms. Now when I say 'rooms' I mean spaces because each space has three walls and where a fourth wall would be is where the steps connect to the house. The wall dividing the spaces is also brick.

[strings012]

I'm not sure, but I think when he describes a wall on the back of the steps, he's describing the stair risers. The plan posted above is very hard to envision.

[Rod Gervais]

He didn't draw it very well - but the steps are climbing from the top of the picture to the bottom - the wall runs at a right angle to the stairs almost in the center.

The problem is the 4'x4'x6' (sloping to 5') space he wants to use. By the time he builds a ceiling inside it's only going to be big enough for a dwarf to stand in - never mind any isolating walls........

Is it possible for you to get more room - you'll kill yourself with an amp in there - and I don't see how you'll ever fir much more than a snare in that space........

Rod

[Chewie]

Once again I'm sorry for my inadequcies. But Rod Gervais get's it but is also discouraging .
I could leave the amp alone in there and the player stay outside and listen to headphones.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Wheeeeeeeeeew!! I thought it was me. Thanks for the confirmation Rod.I couldn't for the life of me figure out why Chewie would want to build a vocal booth in there. I was wondering if I was missing something here. Thats why I waited for someone else to comment. Chewie, sorry for waiting, but you had me baffled. Sometimes, common sense masquerades as misderstanding In this case, it just didn't make sense to me. I understood the drawing, but not the intent so I didn't want to comment further because it seemed rediculous to encourage you further. After coming to grips with the reality of your situation, I thought it was best to see what someone else had to say. Rod hit it on the nailhead. As usual.
fitZ

[Chewie]

Well this is all Chewie has. Plus Chewie didn't realise a ceiling would need to be made. So I'm guessing you guys would advise against this?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

So I'm guessing you guys would advise against this?

Well Chewie, its your space. Do what you feel is best. But as far as improving the isolation is concerned, it takes mass to do it, and usually this is done via layers of drywall, which in turn need a frame to attach it to, and to create an airgap, which makes a 2 leaf assembly. You COULD attatch 2x4 furring strips with the face to the concrete or brick, and then attatch Resiliant channel to the furring strips, and then 2 layers of drywall to the RC, which would create a small airgap and this would take up little space. You would probably have to use 1" rigid fiberglass as the insulation in the airgap as I don't think you could compress regular batt type insulation that tight on these walls. You would have to do this on the ceiling also, which has steps to deal with I haven't got a clue how you would do this other than suspending a slanted framing with RC. This would REALLY lower the existing height though.
The wall dividing the two spaces also has to be delt with. This would require removing the drywall on the booth side, and attatching RC to this framing, and then re-drywall(after insulating with batt type insulation here)
As for the wall with the door, since this is only about 4 or 5 feet wide, AND has a door opening framed in it, there is ONLY one way to keep the inner decoupled leaf intact, and that is by building a DOUBLE WALL with DOUBLE DOORS. Which given the floor space inside, is almost rediculous as the interior door would have to open INTO the booth, which in effect, given the floor space would make it impossible to enter, and then close the door!!!

THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!Unless you could build a double wall, and double door, all the other construction will be negated, as the INNER DECOUPLED DRYWALL LEAF MUST BE COUNTINUOUS, AND THIS DECOUPLING MUST INCLUDE THE CEILING AND WALLS WITH THE INTERIOR DOOR!!!!. Any other method would still be COUPLING the interior construction to the existing structure. Which actually, is a conundrum in the first place, as your concrete floor touchs EVERYTHING, which if you were to place an amp on it, would structurally couple the floor to the amp. This simply flanks all the previous solutions!!!!! DOH!!!! And there is simply NO ROOM to build a floating floor either.


As Rod pointed out, you already are at 6 ft height, and 4x4 ft floor space. Even if you could do what I stated, this would still reduce the height to where a normal person could NOT stand up in there. And you STILL would have to put some kind of treatment, be it foam or rigid fiberglass, and this would make it even smaller. Soooooooooo That is why I hesitated in suggesting anything from the outset. Your set of conditions are EXTREMELY discouraging as it simply is too small from the outset. Except for maybe an amp iso booth. Thats about it, and for the expense and time, that seems rediculous.
Well, I'm out of ideas, maybe someone else can offer a solution. Good luck, and sorry I didn't have a magic formula. Unfortuanately, isolation requires the use of plain ole physics, and that means MASS, which takes up physical space.

fitZ

[Chewie]

Ok. Well inthat case I suppose i will abandon this idea and search for another location. Thanks a lot for the help all of you. But don't relax yet! I'll be be back.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by Chewie

Ok. But don't relax yet! I'll be be back.

We'll be waiting for you...........

Rod

[frederic]

Chewie,

"Cheap" and "Quality" rarely go together in the world of recording, assuming you want a decent outcome. You need to keep that in mind throughout your design and assembly process.

4'x4' is not a large booth, but it's doable assuming your singers aren't pasta lovers

I'd like to submit an alternative to building a miniscule vocal booth. Think about this for a while...

You have a small studio as it is, cutting it down even smaller to make a vocal booth is only going to cut into your existing space, and possibly significantly alter the sound within the studio as compared to how it is now.

What you can do, instead of building a booth, is build, or purchase, isolation panels that are free standing. You can move them around to different configurations, i.e. three panels in a "U" shape for a vocalist, or more of an open "C" shape for something larger, like a drum kit. Much more versitle than a constructed booth with the limitations I percieve you to have. The other advantage of being free standing, should you ever move, or take over another space within this house, you can simply carry them with you to your new space!

Two layers of 3/4" MDF glued and screwed together, with a thick layer of rigid fiberglass installed to one side, with fabric stretched over the fiberglass and stapled to the back. Not very expensive to make, and useful for more than one purpose.

Now, that you have isolation panels in your studio, do know that they aren't going to eliminate all sound and reflections around the room. Just enough that your microphones shouldn't pick up anything but the performing artist. As a console operator, you'll need to recording your artist using headphones, so your monitors don't bleed back to the microphones. Also, record the artist dry, so you get the nicest possible recording you can, and add effects and EQ during the mix, as during mixing you can use your monitors since no one is singing at that point.

Over the years I did many voice-over recordings this way, and the results were "above average" to "excellent", and didn't take up a lot of space. I leaned them all against one wall that wasn't covered in gear, when I lived in my old, much smaller, place.

[SacousticH]

Alright. I have been reading over some of these forums for a few hours now, and have got a pretty good idea on what would need to be done to make my studio sound better.... lets start with i don't even have a studio, but would like to start building/getting the hardware for one. I plan on putting it in the basement to my house which has all wood walls, 1 very small window, linoleum floors with concrete underneat (i imagine), and some half inch kinda solid foamish material on the cieling which is about 6'5 bu has about a foot inbetween that and the actual first floor of the house. The room is about 16' x 25 so its pretty good size, the stairs lead right into the room and there is no door on that, so I imagine I would want to set something up for that. I would mainly be recording all acoustic and vocal stuff, and i want it to sound pretty good with that, though I have a set of drums and a keyboard down there already (don't think i would use them in much recording at first). Anyways any suggestions on what to do would be cool, and I have read much of the "more mass and airtight" stuff, just wondering if there were any specifics for acoustic style of music. thanks