8 track reel to reel ?

[Bigsnake00]

I have spent the last few days trying to figure this stuff out, and thanks to this board for the most part, I have a pretty good idea of what is needed to break into the world of the analog.
Anyway, I am still a little confused about one thing. If I were to be using an 8 track reel to reel, such as a Tascam 38 or otari 5050 mk III, etc., would I just be able to record on thoes 8 tracks in one take, or would I be able to make 8 diffent takes? I have researched the Teac 4 tracks, and they have the simul sync, or whatever, and it seems like the technology of being able to monitor/record over what has been recorded was not avalaible.
Thanks guys
b

[The Ghost of FM]

All of the decks you mentioned and even all the pro ones you didn't mention have syml-sync capability.

So long as you have picked the right mixer to fit your needs, you should be able to simultaneously record as many tracks as you wish and of course over dub additional tracks while playing along with whatever is already on tape.

Cheers!

[Bigsnake00]

Thanks Ghost for the quick reply....
As for mixers, I read the post on here about them, but am having a hard time finding any of the tascam. Is there anywhere else, besides ebay, you would recommend to find them. One last dumb question. if the mixer has 8 channels and is 4 bus, and the recorder is 8 track, i can send two channels per bus, giving me a total of 16 "instruments"?
Thanks in advance
b

[The Ghost of FM]

Yes, you could mix that many instruments together or more!

That's were the fun and creativity come into play. You could create a submix of several mics on a drum kit and feed that all to a couple of tracks to save space and build up more parts with less bouncing.

Eight track decks are really cool for doing a 6 to 2 bounce where you assemble beds of drums, bass, guitar, keys and such on six tracks and then do a bounce of them in stereo to tracks 7 and 8 and then reuse the first 6 tracks to add vocals and solo instruments. Doing something like that would give you a 12 part tune with only one bounce!

What kind of music do you do? Do you work by yourself or in a band?

Cheers!

[Bigsnake00]

I play mostly original tunes that fit into a classic rock alt-country genre. I am currently working by myself and with another guy, but am currently in the process of assembling a band.
Ghost or anyone else, could you be so kind as to give me some input on a few of these recorders I am looking at? Like I said, I will be recording rock and roll stuff....acoustic guitars, fender twins, several 40's and 50's tube amps. Ive got several good mics, so my equipment to this point is ok.
ok here are the recorders
Tascam 38
Fostex R8
Teac's 8 track model, not sure what they are called
and the otari 5050 mkIII
Thanks

[The Ghost of FM]

The TASCAM 38 or the Otari would both be decent choices. Both are 1/2 inch, 15 ips decks and both can record all 8 tracks in one take.

The Fostex is a 4 input deck with 8 outs only so if you need to record more then 4 tracks in one pass, you're SOL and it's also a 1/4 inch deck which won't sound as fat as the first two I mentioned.

The TEAC deck, I assume is the 80-8 and that was a very solid deck too, same format as the first two but a bit older and a bit noisier without noise reduction.

I use a TASCAM 38 as well as a 16 track deck from TASCAM called the MS-16 on one inch tape and both decks sound really good and work reliably.

Cheers!

[The Ghost of FM]

Here's a picture of my current set up.

Cheers!

[Bigsnake00]

Thank you so much!!!!
While ive got you here, ill pump a few more newbie ? to you.
What does ips mean?
Also, what do I use the outputs for on say a Tascam 38?

[Bigsnake00]

Cool looking setup!! Are thoes noise reducers under the Tascam 38? How do you go about hooking thoes up.....I am definalty leaning toward the 38..

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Bigsnake00

What does ips mean?
Also, what do I use the outputs for on say a Tascam 38?

IPS is an acronym for Inches Per Second. The speed at which the tape passes over the heads. 15 ips is an industry standard for professional usage and some very high end decks also run at 30 ips but that's found more in the stereo mastering decks then in the multi-track ones.

The outputs on the 38 or any other deck are the recorded track's individual outputs that each should be fed to a separate channel of a mixer to mix your sound to taste for level, eq effects and so on.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Bigsnake00

Cool looking setup!! Are thoes noise reducers under the Tascam 38? How do you go about hooking thoes up.....I am definalty leaning toward the 38..

Yes, those are custom dbx type I professional noise reduction units. They hook up in line with the ins and outs of the recorder so when you record, they encode the signal by compressing the loud peaks and expand the quiet ones and then on playback they do the opposite and the end result is complete elimination of all audible tape hiss and an improvement on dynamic range and a reduction of distortion because you are never over-taxing the tape.

Cheers!

[Bigsnake00]

Thanks again for all your help Ghost, I learned a lot tonight.... My last question still pertains to the concept of feeding the outputs back to the mixer....wouldn't you run the effects before the inputs. I guess this is just a basic recording technique that I missed, as all my recording has been done on a computer or DAW. Could you please give me better insight into this? Maybe if you told me excatly how you would run your set up mixer to the tascam 38, and lets say using an outboard compressor, and a reverb unit. Ghost, I will be forever greatful.

[A Reel Person]

The Tascam 38 is a great, fat sounding 1/2" 8-track, that was designed and optimized for the "serious" home recording market (of the time). It's hard to go wrong with such a simple and solid deck. Dbx noise reduction is an external option.

(Not mentioned, is)... The Tascam 48 is another 1/2" 8-track, that's the same generation as the 38, 'cept with a lot more heavy duty and pro-oriented in features. (Dbx optional).

(Not mentioned, is)... The Tascam 58 is another 1/2" 8-track deck, that's even a cut above the 48 on pro features. (Dbx optional).

(Not mentioned, is)... The Tascam TSR-8 is the more modern successor to the 38, and is a little more high-techy and loaded on some features, while simultaneous cutting corners on some things 38 may owners take for granted. The TSR-8 has built in dbx NR, and fairly good locate and sync options.

(Not mentioned, is)... The Tascam ATR-60/8, was Tascam's top-topline 1/2" reel 8-track, that says "pro" all the way. (Dbx optional).

Beg yer pardon, Ghost,... but...

The Fostex R8 is an 8-in/8-out 1/4" 8-track reel recorder, that will record 8-tracks simultaneously. The R-8 has sync/locate features. The R-8 was one of Fostex's topline 8-tracks, (second only to the E-8).

(Not mentioned, is)... The Fostex E-8 is the big-daddy of 1/4" 8-track R/R's, that is the only Fostex 1/4" 8-track to sport 10.5" (large) reels. (All the other Fostex 8-trackers sport the smaller 7" reels). The E-8 has 8-in/8-out/8-simul record capability, and advanced of locate/sync features. The E-8 is seen less often, but is a big upgrade to the R-8-class of recorders.

(Not mentioned, is)... the Fostex Model 80, which is another 1/4" 8-track R/R, that's just one generation older than the R8.

The oldest Fostex 8-track reel deck is the A-8. The A-8 is where the entire line of Fostex 1/4" 8-track reel decks for home recording began. The A-8 is the same vintage as the Tascam 38, but the A-8 has 4-inputs and 8-outputs, and therefore will only record 4-tracks simultaneously, (max).

The nex-gen revision of the A-8 was the Fostex A-8LR, which is a true 8-in/8-out/8-simul recording 1/4" 8-track reel deck. Find the A-8LR as preferable to the A-8, if you can find it at all.

All Fostex 8-track reel decks are Dolby-C NR decks, which has a subtly different characteristic sound to it, as compared to dbx (Tascam). I find dbx a better overall noise supressor, and just a mellower sound, over all.

None of the Fostex 1/4" 8-track reels will sound as fat as a Tascam 1/2" 8-track. Period.

No discussion on the topic of reel-8-tracks would be complete without mention of the Tascam 388. The 388 was Tascam's only entry into the 1/4" 8-track reel field, but it's a fully loaded Portastudio-format deck,... a true all-in-one'r. The 388 with dbx and a highly capable integrated 8x8x2 mixer, somehow places above Fostex 1/4" 8-track reel decks on sound quality. Even though Fostex 1/4" reel decks are 15-ips machines, and the 388 runs at 7.5-ips, the lower tape speed of 7.5-ips seems to work in the 388's advantage, in the net result. The super-high quality mixer section of the 388 is a huge complement in the 388's capability and great sound quality. What's nice about the 388, is that it's a Portastudio format, so it eliminates all the complexity and hassles of outboard mixers and patching.

Post-note: The complementary array of Fostex 8 channel/4-buss mixers were just so-so on quality, as compared to something as topline as the 388's mixer section, the Tascam M-30/M-35, the Tascam M-300 series, or M-500 series.

All the products mentioned above are satisfactory solutions to 8-track reel analog recording, however, I'm more partial toward Tascam, such as the 38, 388 & TSR-8. The 48 & 58 are a little more "pro" for my needs. In mixers, I'll stick with the Tascam 388, M-30, M-300's, and M-500's, w/the M-520 being a topline vintage pro mixer. Somehow, I'm more interested in the "pro" M-520, more than I'm interested in the "pro" 58 or ATR-60/8, so go figure.

Most of these decks and mixers may be had on most days for very reasonable bid prices on Ebay. As they always say with this sort of thing, YMMV.

Ghost covers most topics very thoroughly, but I'm known to pop out with a long winded technical memo, on occasion.

That's all I have to say, for now. BBL.

Good luck & have fun.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Bigsnake00

Thanks again for all your help Ghost, I learned a lot tonight.... My last question still pertains to the concept of feeding the outputs back to the mixer....wouldn't you run the effects before the inputs. I guess this is just a basic recording technique that I missed, as all my recording has been done on a computer or DAW. Could you please give me better insight into this? Maybe if you told me excatly how you would run your set up mixer to the tascam 38, and lets say using an outboard compressor, and a reverb unit. Ghost, I will be forever greatful.

So long as you find a mixer that has insert points in each of the mixer's main mixing channels, there is no need to do the hook-up in the way you are envisioning it.

Though an insert point, you can plug in an external compressor or other signal processor to affect the track in question and leave the outputs of your recorder plugged into the mixer's standard line inputs or dedicated tape return inputs, (depending on the mixer you select).

A decently equipped mixer will also have effect and auxiliary sends on it to bleed off a portion of the channel's signal to feed to reverberator units which then get injected back into the mix via effect return channels on a so equipped board.

It will make a lot more sense once you have an actual mixer in front of you or at least a signal flow diagram from the mixer as it will show you where all the signals go and what routes they can take internally and externally, outside of the mixer.

Cheers!

[The Ghost of FM]

Beg yer pardon, Ghost,... but...

The Fostex R8 is an 8-in/8-out 1/4" 8-track reel recorder, that will record 8-tracks simultaneously. The R-8 has sync/locate features. The R-8 was one of Fostex's topline 8-tracks, (second only to the E-8).

I think you are right!

On my R-8, I only had 4 inputs going into the line ins as there was a built in switching matrix to channel the sound to the track in question via the record arm buttons.

I had a senior moment!

Cheers!

[A Reel Person]

You're right on that,... that the Fostex R8 has a "dual" or "link" function, that will link signal from tracks 1-4 to tracks 5-8, internally. THAT's a handy little feature, and would explain why you only needed 4 (buss-outs-to-tape-input) connections. Makes sense to me.

Thanx!!

[Bigsnake00]

Thanks again guys..
As far as a mixer is concerened I want to make sure I get the right one...
It looks like a tascam mixer is the way to go, I have found a good deal on a M-308, 4 bus....does this sound like a good fit for me ?

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of FM

Here's a picture of my current set up.

Cheers!

HOLLY MOSES! Cool set-up Jeff!!! (too bad there ain't a "smilie" for drooling! )

~Daniel

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Bigsnake00

Thanks again guys..
As far as a mixer is concerened I want to make sure I get the right one...
It looks like a tascam mixer is the way to go, I have found a good deal on a M-308, 4 bus....does this sound like a good fit for me ?

The 300 series is a fantastic line of multitrack mixer to go with and if you can find one in decent shape and for a good price, you should definitely snap it up!

Another great feature of the 300 series is that they are expandable so if and when you need more channels for mixing and effects as well as a few sequenced midi channels, you can always add a second 300 series mixer to the first one, just like my set up, which consists of two M312B's cascaded together to form one giant sized mixing console!

Cheers!

[Bigsnake00]

Great! I am going to try and snag a mixer, and hopefully a recorder in the very near future. Thanks for all your help, I guess you dont get tired of answering all of these newbie questions. Im sure I will have more questions once I get my equipment. Could you give me one final checklist on all of the things I will need to get started (cables and such). I am trying to get a ballpark figure on everything price wise.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by Bigsnake00

Great! I am going to try and snag a mixer, and hopefully a recorder in the very near future. Thanks for all your help, I guess you dont get tired of answering all of these newbie questions. Im sure I will have more questions once I get my equipment. Could you give me one final checklist on all of the things I will need to get started (cables and such). I am trying to get a ballpark figure on everything price wise.

I don't get tired so much as I only have a limited amount of time each day to contribute here on this bbs and another one called TASCAM FORUMS, where I moderate the Analog wing of that bbs.

Let's have some others participate here too!

I don't want to hog the stage too much!

Cheers!

[Muckelroy]

GREAT THREAD, thought this would be the most appropriate place to ask this question:

On the TSR-8, do you have the ability to activate/deactivate the DBX Noise Reduction? If so, is that on a per-channel basis, or an overall basis?

AND, are there any CONS to using DBX NR? Does it alter/change the sound in any negative ways? I read your thing about how it compresses the peaks, and vamps up the quiet stuff, and then does it in reverse on the out-side..........that's kinda confuzing, does that alter the sound in any negative way, as opposed to the final result W/OUT DBX?

Okee-day, thanks for the time.

ALSO, Ghost, how the crap did you hook together those 2 mixers? What channels/sends/masters/etc. are hooked up between the two? thanks!

-callie-

[A Reel Person]

the dbx can be defeated on track 8 only, for purposes of timecode.

Dbx is a pretty awesome noise reduction system, with very few audible side effects, only in the most extreme & isolated cases. Overall, it does a great job with most program material it's handed.

Dbx is a compression/expansion process, that reduces residual tape noise almost completely, and boosts broadband dynamic range. It's very powerful in itself, but yields a very natural result.

Recording on tape without dbx just invites tape hiss back into the mix, with few positive attributes that would be considered a net gain.

YMMV.

[BRDTS]

There are no cons to using dbx. Tracks are just simply quiet and hiss free when one uses dbx. But... it's your decision as to whether to use it or not.

The tsr8 has two switches..one turns dbx off or on for trks 1-4 (all at once) and the other switch does the same thing for trks 5-8. Primary reasons for grouping these two switches was to save cost and still allow the dbx to be turned off or on depending on what was being played (a tape made with dbx encoding or not). Older Tascam machines like my 85-16b have a dbx on/off on each track....waste of switches. You're either gonna use dbx or not. Not just on some tracks.

If you record a track with dbx on and then play it back with dbx off, it will be a weird sounding, thin, signal with no low end...or pumping volume sounds..or all of the above. In other words, if you encode with dbx, you'll also play back with dbx . DBX works in the background and sounds transparent.

I have always used the dbx when using the tsr8 or any of my larger Tascam studio machines. On the other hand, some folks turn off the dbx and record without it..running the input high, pushing the meters above 0 db and preferring the small amount of accompanying hiss (which will be minimal) as a more pleasing type of addition to the track. I never preferred that kind of sound. You can try it and see which you prefer. There's no right or wrong to the approaches.

[A Reel Person]

Yeah, I've always used dbx when it was available, and I don't see what the hullabaloo is about whether to use it or not. Do you want tape hiss, or not?

Most of the recorders I've used have dbx built in, and I just use it, as is. My Tascam 38 had no dbx for the many years I used it, and tape hiss there, but not to an uncomfortable level. Tape hiss is usually noticed on the beginning and tail end of recordings, with it not being an issue during the body of the recording.

Dbx is there for a reason. Use it. Thanx again!