I have Angry nieghbors, How would you Soundproof your basement?

[funksoulrubber]

Good afternoon,
I am going to build a rehearsal/recording space in a basement next to angry neighbors the basement has cement walls so i was going to insulate the ceiling really well and also the windows of coarse, How exactly would YOU soundproof a basement like this with cement walls and floors and an unfinished ceiling? If you could give me details and links to the exact products you would use for the best results and/or most cost effective. So far I have this information for walls
Goto this link below to see the page
http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/soundproofing/emem.htm[/URL]

That info is from this site from a .uk company in Europe, but where could i find equally effective material in the states?

Will my angry neighbors be happy with 58db of sound reduction on just the ceiling since the walls are under ground do i need to do the walls to?

how would you do it?

your advice is very appreciated

Thanks
Rick

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I am going to build a rehearsal/recording space in a basement next to angry neighbors

That's your first mistake. What makes them angry? Have you already had a confrontation over loud sound? How loud was it? What did they say or do?

First, you need to supply FAR MORE information to get appropriate solution advice.
Where are the "angry" neighbors? Above or in adjacent side space?
Do you own or rent?
What type of music/instruments and what are you using to record?
What is your budget?
Are you building this yourself or hiring it done?
What type of building? Apartment? Duplex? Townhouse? Commercial or residential?
Can you post a floor plan as EXISTS AND PROPOSED? If so, show everything you can.
Describe the exposed ceiling. How deep are the joists, and how far apart are they? What do you see above for a subfloor?
Any HVAC, or radiators, pipes, ducts, elevators, stairs, motors, or any other device, columns, Beams, or ANYTHING that penetrates the floor above or adjacent walls, or will be IN the space you have decided will be a studio?
What is the dimension from existing floor to the bottom of the existing joists and if exists, to the bottom of any beams?
Do these joists terminate at the concrete walls? Are all the walls enclosing this TOTAL space, concrete?
What do you plan on for heating, cooling and ventilation?
You mentioned windows. In a basement? That tells me grade is either below these windows, or the windows have an exterior "dam" around them. Please clarify this condition and what type and size of windows, and show location on your plan. What is the dimension from existing floor, to the bottom of window sill?
How thick are these concrete walls?
Any other adjacent neighbors besides the angry ones?
What type of environmental noise exists? Cars, aircraft, dogs, trucks, trains, guns, people, structural noise from above, such as HVAC, foot traffic, radios?

These will do for a start. The more information people have to work with, the better they can extrapolate solutions.
fitZ

[funksoulrubber]

ok lemme rephrase that question, I want to make a crap load of noise in my basement but I don’t want neighbors to hear it, they are all around me and I don’t want to bother them and the neighbors on the farthest side of our basement space suck. Right now I really just want to know what the best layering on the ceiling would consist of, like what material is the most sound killing combination in what order starting from plywood floor over regular wood floor joices. The concrete walls are 1 1/2 feet thick underground, there are no windows I must correct myself. Im doing this and my friend is paying for the material I just need to know what we should use on the ceiling that will kill the sound from going through the floor and into the streets. You don’t think that soundproofing the ceiling really well will do it? I am not going to attach the ceiling to the floor I want to hang it from the sides with cross beams like a totally new ceiling and connect it to the cement walls so vibrations from walking above won’t come through and visa versa. There is no outside noise, it’s in a quiet rural neighborhood. The floor joists are 9 1/2" deep and 14" apart.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I want to make a crap load of noise in my basement but I don’t want neighbors to hear it,

Hmmmmmm, let me see if I have this right. You ask a question. I give you an answer that requires information. You DON"T want to take the time to answer it, then fine, why should I take the time to answer you then. You know, I see this crap all the time. Everybody wants information, but don't want to take the f......king time to give any. Well, good luck smart guy. crap load of noise indeed.

[d(-_-)b-Phones]

Rick for gods sake...

Let me break it down because your to lazy to read.

He wants to stop all sound.

cement walls ( basement )

Unfinished Ceiling ( floor joices )

The neighbors are 360 Degrees Around.

..... whats next rick, need his mothers maiden name?

[fitZ2]

Let me break it down because your to lazy to read.

Unbelievable.

The concrete walls are 1 1/2 feet thick underground,

Then maybe YOU can tell him why 1 1/2 thick concrete walls are STILL not stopping the transmission to the neighbors. Do you really think that simply covering the ceiling will stop it GET A GRIP.

[funksoulrubber]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Hmmmmmm, let me see if I have this right. You ask a question. I give you an answer that requires information. You DON"T want to take the time to answer it, then fine, why should I take the time to answer you then. You know, I see this crap all the time. Everybody wants information, but don't want to take the f......king time to give any. Well, good luck smart guy. crap load of noise indeed.

Good show od chap. Maybe you forgot your medicine today. Well let me take THE TIME to remind you! Perhaps you come from the same cheese factory these friendly neighbors of mine do. thanks for everything, you have been a great help up till this point but Your Fired.. Maybe you should go relax in the corner and think about what just happend.

I am asking for simple help. Does anyone else besides "Fritz" have anything positive & contributing to say about a successful layering of a group of precise materials, I would like to do this with the ceiling and the walls ALSO, if I have to
[floor]2k acoustic membrane[100mm FIRE-SAFE ACOUSTIC MINERAL WOOL]2k acoustic membrane[100mm FIRE-SAFE ACOUSTIC MINERAL WOOL][2k acoustic membrane][1/2" plywood][12.5mm sheetrock] is the plywood overkill? I think its necessary, is there a better layered composition of materials? Is there an equivalent to these materials on this site http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co....ofing/emem.htm available in the states? What is it?

thank you for all your time, i apologize if i am not giving everyone enough information here, all i need to know at this point is what i am asking

thanks

[distortedrumble]

the membrane could work...you also need to figure out a way to pad the basement vents. creating a 60s hippie motif (hanging up 5 foot tapestries and throw pillows, possibly a shag carpet?) could help a bunch also. now all that stuff will help but none of it will stop all sound from traveling outside the house

[Rod Gervais]

Each situation is different - but the fact is - you could install your ceiling and still have the same problem with the neighbors - especially with the volumes your talking about...........

Your best bet is the room within a room concept -

And even then - if your foundation touched ledge - and theirs did as well (the same rock outcroping) - you wouldn't solve the problem - in that case you would also need a floating floor.

See - it isn't as easy an answer as it seems.

Is the sound getting to them through the air - or is it a flanking sound being transmitted partly through the earth.

What are your decible levels in the basement while you're doing your thing - what are they outside of your basement at the property line - how far are the neighbors house from the property line - this would let us know just how much isolation you really needed.

I think that was one of Rick's points - the more you tell us about your situation - the more possible it is for us to help you.

For example - if the readings at the property line were 100db - and the neighbor's house is 6' from the property line - I would tell you that in addition to your room - you will probably have to turn down your volume as well.

Rod

[geet73]

Funk,
You need to give alot more information than "I have angry neighbors and I want to make noise. Will putting shit on my ceiling work?"..

Putting shit on your ceiling won't do much for your neighbors.

Fitz gave you a list of questions to answer SO HE COULD HELP YOU. At least try to answer some of them. You'll get a lot farther than just making fun of someone who could save you hundreds of dollars...

Jackass.

With your attitude, you might be better off talking to KevinDrummer.

[frederic]

The answer (obviously) is foam-by-mail on every surface, including the floor.

I don't know what it is, but lately the crankyness is astounding.

Is it because its cold and wintery, and no one's going outside for fresh air anymore? Or is the sun setting too early and the constant dark is affecting people's moods?

Geez.

Prozac for everyone!

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by geet73

Funk,
You need to give alot more information than "I have angry neighbors and I want to make noise. Will putting shit on my ceiling work?"..

Putting shit on your ceiling won't do much for your neighbors.

Fitz gave you a list of questions to answer SO HE COULD HELP YOU. At least try to answer some of them. You'll get a lot farther than just making fun of someone who could save you hundreds of dollars...

Jackass.

With your attitude, you might be better off talking to KevinDrummer.

Ouch!

Oh well, back to the problem. Like frederic said....

Buy Foam!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The situation here is obvious. Let me quote you Rick

How exactly would YOU soundproof a basement like this with cement walls and floors and an unfinished ceiling? I

If I'm not mistaken here, you were asking anyone who dared anwser your question, how THEY would "soundproof" your basement, and since I DID answer, then it fell on me to explain EXACTLY how "I" would solve your problem. Well since you obviously do not understand that there is no such thing as "soundproof", and I do, then it was up to me to do it MY WAY
Lets examine your statements a little closer. You already told us it has concrete walls and an unfinished ceiling and it is in a basement.

If you could give me details

Quite frankly, I AM a professional DETAILER, and I use Autocad to detail, however, how does one DETAIL if he knows NOTHING about what he is DETAILING
Moving on:

information for walls

This too tells me something. I take this as you want to build walls, which anybody with any common sense at all would ASSUME that is why you provided a link, which still leaves me wondering what it is for.
And:

That info is from this site from a .uk company in Europe, but where could i find equally effective material in the states?

This implies that you have ALREADY made up your mind that these products will satisfy your containment goals, but need to find them in the US. Hmmmm, why were you asking us HOW you would do it then?
More:

Will my angry neighbors be happy with 58db of sound reduction on just the ceiling since the walls are under ground do i need to do the walls to?

Why would you build a ceiling with 58db of transmission loss, IF you didn't even know the rating of the walls? And exactly how did you come up with this figure? No, matter, now you are saying you are WILLING to build walls AND a ceiling, no?

i was going to insulate the ceiling really well and also the windows of coarse

I take this as there are windows. Hmmm, is it any wonder I asked about the condition?

there are no windows I must correct myself

Oh, now there are no windows. Ok. What else are you confused about?

Right now I really just want to know what the best layering on the ceiling would consist of,

Oh, now I know. You are confused about the scope of construction. First it was walls and ceiling. Now it is just the ceiling, regardless of structural transmission through ONE AND ONE HALF FEET OF FRIGGIN CONCRETE!! This really tells me something.

Maybe you forgot your medicine today.

On the contrary OLE CHAP. I need no medicine. You are the one who sounds confused. I tried to give you CONCISE questions to give you a CONCISE solution....but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You already KNOW what you want to do. What you REALLY want is someone to do is tell you where to find similar materials to the ones in the link, and tell you that your solution will guarantee a 58 db containment. I have news for you. NOT!

how would you do it?

I tried to tell you, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That wasn't good enough.
It required some THINKING on your part, which I surmise is too much WORK for you

your advice is very appreciated

That my friend, is bullshit.
And so are you. If you truly did, you would have answered my questions, and in return would have received the data you seek IMMEDIATELY. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.........you only want someone to tell you YOUR solution will work. Ha. Good luck. BTW, you haven't got a clue.
oh yea, the name is FITZ, not FRITZ. Most people that I try to help, at LEAST use my correct surname. See ya chump.
fitZ

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I don't know what it is, but lately the crankyness is astounding.

frederic, I am NOT cranky. I TRIED to help this moron, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Contrary to his notion that I have time to kill, I USED my precious time to help him, only to receive a snot nosed reply. Bullshit if I'm going to put up with it. They can go fuck themself after I spend my time , and then get a response like that. Crankyness indeed. More like PISSED OFF!!
fitZ

[Todzilla]

funksouldude,

Folks want to help you, but they need to understand certain structural issues about your situation. Soundproofing is so much more than putting stuff up which magically absorbs sound waves otherwise destined for your cranky neighbors.

You need mass and isolation, which are difficult principles to apply without gaps in your implementation. Any gaps and you might as well not have started in the first place.

I think you'll find the folks here on this board have useful information, but they are looking for information on your basement, the materials you have, the adjacency of the neighbors and so forth. You'll get useful, if somewhat discouraging advice once you provide more specifics.

[frederic]

Rick, my rude comments weren't aimed at you specifically.

I was merely making a general assessment of how there has been a lot of word-wanking lately... that's all.

My comments indicate more of my annoyance with the internet in general, rather than an indication of anyone here.

Must be time to disconnect again

[d(-_-)b-Phones]

I really think rick should be on some kind od Benzo, lets see if we can pick what one?

[d(-_-)b-Phones]

I pick Lorazepam.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by d(-_-)b-Phones

I pick Lorazepam.

You're just saying that because it's the largest molecule, and will thus absorb the most sound

[d(-_-)b-Phones]

( my best Rick voice )


NOOOOOOOOOOOO LARGE DOES NOT STOP SOUND AHHHHH I TRY TO HELP YOU FOOLZ BUT DAMN YOU DONT WANT IT AHHHHHHHHHHH I TRY AND TRY AHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I TRIED TO HELP!

[Rod Gervais]

Hey phones,

nice record ya got going there......... about 25% of your posts actually have merit........ nice to see you aren't a complete waste........ I mean hell - 75% of the time - could be worse right?

Most sincerely,

Rod

[Innovations]

Trying to return the thread to real information....

Understand, funksoulrubber, that real isolation, the kind that will allow your neighbors really to not notice that you are making a whole crapload of sound, require carefull attention to details. Bad seals on the door or bad caulking or a penetrating duct or outlet box or even a screw-through on resillient channel can undo a lot of other expensive work.

Ok, that being said, lets look at your specific problem. First of all what you are describing seems sort of like mass loaded vinyl but not quite. I am leary about their claims. Be leary about miracle soundproofing claims from a material that is not heavy. Besides I am guessing this stuff is pricey.

Usually the biggest problem with converting a basement is headroom. If you are lucky your basement has a full 8 feet of headroom but many do not, Adding a whole extra set of joists, at least six inches deep plus sheathing is going to give you a rather claustrophobic space.

Now, lets go to the basics. What you want is two massive and decoupled leaves with a cushioned air space in between. You already have your first leaf, the floor above. but how do you add mass to it? You could add it to the floor above, like putting mass loaded vinyl under the carpet, or if the floor above is untouchable direct screw a layer of gypsum board directly to the underfloor between the studs, caulking the edges. sure the joists themselves will represent a flanking path, but they have some mass too.

Next comes the airspace, which you have between the joists already. You just have to cushion it so standing waves do not get set up in the cavity. Fluffy insulation found at home improvement stores is sufficient for this. Fill it nice and solid.

Now comes the lower, decoupled leaf. What I would suggest is two layers of gypsum board screwed to hat channel on isolation clips, such as RISC-1 or ISOMAX. The mounting clips are expensive, but the gypsum board is cheap. But watch the details: caulking, penetration, connections to walls, etc. And of course this is just the ceiling. No soundproofing is better than its weakest element.

[geet73]

Originally Posted by frederic

I don't know what it is, but lately the crankyness is astounding.

Is it because its cold and wintery, and no one's going outside for fresh air anymore? Or is the sun setting too early and the constant dark is affecting people's moods?

Geez.

Prozac for everyone!

I just get annoyed at the amount of people that ask questions, but don't give enough information for them to be answered. Then they get an attitude like the person wasn't trying to help or can't help.

I actually like the winter. I drove past a local ski mountain and they were spraying fake snow. I really want to have a snowball fight now.

[frederic]

Originally Posted by geet73

I just get annoyed at the amount of people that ask questions, but don't give enough information for them to be answered. Then they get an attitude like the person wasn't trying to help or can't help.

I could easily write a 30 page dissertation of what annoys me, however I'll spare all of you that agony. Lets just say because of such, my participation lessens almost daily. I've all but dropped off various automotive forums because of this.

When guys like Rod state something, I listen. Period. I'd be willing to bet cold cash that he's correct the vast majority of the time, based on my reading 99% of his posts. I'm sure on rare occasions he's incorrect, but if you pay careful attention to the language he chooses, you can easily see when he's stating a fact based on knowledge and/or experience, or an educated guess based on what he believes to be true. He's very fair that way in his writing.

This also applies to Steve, Ethan, and many others who are knowledgeable in various areas of the recording environment and incredibly generous of their time as well.

I in turn appreciate their advice, and take it as such. If I were paying them to design my studio, that would be an entirely different situation. There would be expectations placed upon them, and they would have deliverables that were measurable and meaningful. But that's not the case here, they are giving their time, knowledge and experience away for free, free for our benefit.

The least we can do, as a group, is spit on their hats less often.

[bigdaddyd]

Ok, i am only relating what I saw a buddy do with angry neighbours.....

If any of this is against any of the laws of physics of sound... then email me an ill bend over!

this old lady called the cops on my buddy for drumming. He put up two layers of the brown 4x8 sound board they use in construction (like between apartments). It was dead quiet in there. Too quiet. And you could hear nothing outside. Almost couldnt hear yourself speak. Really weird. then he got this idea to resheetrock the wall over the two layers, that were over the original layer of rock, that had fiberglass under it......it brought some.... uhhhhhhhh... uuhhhhhhhh.....
***(Bigdaddyd stops to find a word, and worries that he may use the wrong word-....and get yelled at)

....Reflection! back into the room. quite outside, decent inside.

It was farely cheap to do.

d