Iso Booth Budget and Plans

[halo206]

I didnt know what to title my post. I have a space in my basement thats 9' x 9' x 7' . The floor is concrete with a thin layer of carpeting. Two of the walls are Studs with 1/2" Blue Board on them and are surrounded by concrete. The other two walls dont exist yet, and i cant build "dividing walls", They need to be removable (panels maybe). The ceiling has 1/2" Board and 1/2" Fiber Board (Which kind i dont know) It was 7$ for a 4' x 8' piece at Home Depot. I will be recording acoustic drum kits, guitar and bass cabs, vocals, and other acoustic instruments in this room.

My Budget is 300$. I need to eliminate as much sound as i can, and i also need it to sound good when im recording. What options do i have? Fiberglass? I also need a way to get in and out, much construction to do. SO can anyone tell me what they think i should do, becuase im really lost when it comes to this. And also maybe some links or places where i can check out some "cheap" materials for sound elimination.

Thanks!!
- Mike

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by halo206

I didnt know what to title my post. I have a space in my basement thats 9' x 9' x 7' . The floor is concrete with a thin layer of carpeting. Two of the walls are Studs with 1/2" Blue Board on them and are surrounded by concrete. The other two walls dont exist yet, and i cant build "dividing walls", They need to be removable (panels maybe). The ceiling has 1/2" Board and 1/2" Fiber Board (Which kind i dont know) It was 7$ for a 4' x 8' piece at Home Depot. I will be recording acoustic drum kits, guitar and bass cabs, vocals, and other acoustic instruments in this room.

My Budget is 300$. I need to eliminate as much sound as i can, and i also need it to sound good when im recording. What options do i have? Fiberglass? I also need a way to get in and out, much construction to do. SO can anyone tell me what they think i should do, becuase im really lost when it comes to this. And also maybe some links or places where i can check out some "cheap" materials for sound elimination.

Thanks!!
- Mike

Wish I could help. I'm in the same situation. Very small space that I don't want to make smaller.

I want my brother in law's house that has 1,200 sf unfinished in the basement alone. But my wife loves our house and is unwilling to move.

I'm a little more fortunate than you with higher ceiling heights, and thats probably where I'll concentrate my efforts (that's also the major problem with sound leaks/transmission to the "family space".

My tentative plan right now is to install furring strips right on top of the existing sheetrock, and then resilient channel over that, and then 2 layers of 5/8 sheetrock.

Good luck!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

My tentative plan right now is to install furring strips right on top of the existing sheetrock, and then resilient channel over that, and then 2 layers of 5/8 sheetrock.

Now I know you don't have a clue to the correct way to do this stuff. I suggest you do some reading as far as RC is concerned. You would be making the situation worse, by building a THREE LEAF system.
fitZ

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Mike,to be blatant, the solution for this stuff simple. Bite the bullet and accept the realities from the outset, and you will save yourself a bunch of headaches. To isolate drums, PERIOD, you must have MASS, and a DECOUPLED INNER LEAF. That means, if you are building panels, they MUST be a double LEAF whereby the inner leaf is mechanically seperated from the outer leaf. The airgap between the two MUST be filled with insulation and be as deep as space permits. Furthermore, this inner leaf INCLUDES the ceiling. You MAY not have to include the floor, IF, DECOUPLED platforms for drums, amps, mic stands etc are used. However, a floating floor would be adviseable. This would actually result in a ROOM WITHIN A ROOM. Also, sound transmission LOSS, is ONLY as good as the WEAKEST LINK. If your doors, seals, HVAC ducting/grills, electrical cutouts, pipes, structural connections etc are NOT addressed, all other techniques will be reduced to the transmission loss of the weakest link.
fitZ

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Now I know you don't have a clue to the correct way to do this stuff. I suggest you do some reading as far as RC is concerned. You would be making the situation worse, by building a THREE LEAF system.
fitZ

Actually it would be more than that, as there is a subfloor above that, and newly installed hardwoods over that.

The RC is needed because all existing structures a fastened mechanically/traditionally.

Its been stated here and elsewhere that above 3 leaf is hard to calculate even by the pros.

However, my current understanding is that if I have most of the mass in the first structure, it will help substantially. Please correct me if I'm wrong - before I start buying stuff.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

However, my current understanding is that if I have most of the mass in the first structure, it will help substantially. Please correct me if I'm wrong - before I start buying stuff.

Your stubborness in accepting the tested physics of iso assemblies is of no concern to me. People have REPEATEDLY tried to inform you of the realities. Do what you will. I don't care. But I'll be damned if I'll stand by and let you suggest to others what YOU feel is QUALIFIED advice. I've also REPEATEDLY given my disclaimer on this forum that I am NOT an expert, engineer, or qualified advice giver either. BUT, I have read enough from those who ARE, to know the correct use of TWO LEAFS and RC. FIRST. All other leafs between an outer leaf and a leaf suspended on RC, MUST be removed. PERIOD. That is, if you want RC to perform its intended function. In the case of a floor above, in order to add mass, you must either add flooring mass above, OR add mass from below. Usually between the joists via multiple layers of drywall that are fastened via screws, cleats, or adhesives, and then caulked. THEN either a NEW ceiling should be either, SUSPENDED via Risc Clips and hatchannel, OR RC, OR new joists suspended by Risc Clips, or supported by floating room walls or isolated walls, and then multiple layers of drywall fastened, caulked, taped and textured etc. AND, transmission loss is STILL dependent on your weakest links in the assembly. DOORS,SEALS, HVAC, paying attention to details, correct fastening, caulking and a million other details etc.
You MAY be correct about a heavy mass overcoming three leaf issues. But that is something no one here can calculate. All I know is TWO LEAF, insulated and decoupled TESTED assemblies are the BEST bang for the buck solutions. PERIOD.
fitZ

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by KevinDrummer

Actually it would be more than that, as there is a subfloor above that, and newly installed hardwoods over that.

The RC is needed because all existing structures a fastened mechanically/traditionally.

Its been stated here and elsewhere that above 3 leaf is hard to calculate even by the pros.

However, my current understanding is that if I have most of the mass in the first structure, it will help substantially. Please correct me if I'm wrong - before I start buying stuff.

Kevin,

As long as the subfloor and all additional flooring over that are installed so they are in direct contact with each other - that IS the 3rd leaf.

The 1st leaf is your new ceiling - then the air space created by the RC - then the existing ceiling - then the air space above that and finally the subfloor and hardwood flooring. That's your 3 leaf system.

Installing the RC directly to the existing ceiling has proven to decrease the actual isolation (in comparison to the isolation available due to the mass alone when it is used in the correct locations). Understand that this is the point being made. Adding the RC below and then 2 layers of drywall WILL increase your isolation - (except for some pesky frequencies that it MIGHT actually decrease the isolation value of) but you will never reach the full isolation potential of the entire assembly when installed correctly.

One of the problems with just calculating even a simple mass - air - mass assembly is that it doesn't generally work the way it works in real life.

I've done calcs on assemblies (both by hand and by software specifically designed for those purposes) and compared them to actual test results of the same assemblies performed in certified labs........

Weighted results generally vary as much as 3 or 4 db and specific frequency results can vary by as much as 15 to 20 db.

This is the reason I always advise people to use rated tested assemblies rather than just relying on calculations for performance value.

In the end - the really cheapest method of construction is to build something that you know will work to the extent you need. Anything else is a risk...... perhaps it will work - perhaps it won't...........

It the times that it doesn't get you what you need that it really starts to cost you.......... all that work and money invested and a wife who's ripping because you spent all that money and she still isn't happy with the results makes for a miserable time.

Sincerely,

Rod

[KevinDrummer]

Thanks, Rod - I understand for the most part. Perhaps I was previoulsy confused on what a "leaf" was - I was thinking it was the masses, not the airspaces.

But I am up against some real space constraints, as well as budgetary. I do have the option of removing the existing ceiling and applying RC and a the heavier ceiling - but it seems like a lot more work, and I guess I'm not sold on the idea that the overall result would be better.

I guess clarification on the differences in mass for each "leaf" would benefit me. For example, what incremental benefit would I realize by 3 layers of 1/2" or even 5/8".

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

You MAY be correct about a heavy mass overcoming three leaf issues. But that is something no one here can calculate. All I know is TWO LEAF, insulated and decoupled TESTED assemblies are the BEST bang for the buck solutions. PERIOD.
fitZ

Well, I'm guessing that some folks here actually can comment on the heavy mass in the first leaf.

You know, I've not purported to be an engineer, because I'm not. However, I have taken a few engineering classes and I've worked closlely with engineers for over 22 years.

Engineering is about problem solving. Sure, "rules of thumb" such as you suggest make the *engineers* job easier - but, to me, the interesting part of engineering is solving new problems. A true engineering student learns about the realities of Scope, Schedule, and Budget. My scope includes space constaints, my budget is limited, and schedule is really not a factor.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Ok, I give. Your right, and the REST of the whole damn community is wrong. Good luck.
fitZ

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Ok, I give. Your right, and the REST of the whole damn community is wrong. Good luck.
fitZ

My post commisurated with a fellow poster, shared my tentative plans, and asked for help.

That wasn't very helpful - thanks (i guess) anyway.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally Posted by KevinDrummer

Thanks, Rod - I understand for the most part. Perhaps I was previoulsy confused on what a "leaf" was - I was thinking it was the masses, not the airspaces.

But I am up against some real space constraints, as well as budgetary. I do have the option of removing the existing ceiling and applying RC and a the heavier ceiling - but it seems like a lot more work, and I guess I'm not sold on the idea that the overall result would be better.

I guess clarification on the differences in mass for each "leaf" would benefit me. For example, what incremental benefit would I realize by 3 layers of 1/2" or even 5/8".

Kevin,

Once again - sight unseen - without performing test to determine what percentage of your sound transfer is flanking vrs direct through the floor/ceiling assembly - I can't tell you what the over all result would be.

I can tell you (for a fact) that the 3 leaf assembly will not be as good as a 2 leaf assembly with the same number of sheets.

I cannot (for each case) tell you what the difference would be. This because of my limitations in assessing your conditions.

As I've noted previously - in general terms - every doubling of mass = 6db of reduction sound transfer.

Rod

[Innovations]

(Returning to Mikes problem)

I don't see how you can meet your needs. In particular once you said that you could not build permanent walls on two sides most hope of getting anything resembling isolation went away. There might have been a hope of building some sort of freestanding booth, and that would have worked for vocals, accoustic instriments and (with some extra help of an iso-box) for the cabs. But once you mentioned drums both the size of the room went up and the sound levels. There is no way you could do it within your budget.

[halo206]

Hello!

Thanks Innovations! for the reply. Its kind of ridiculous how many posts ive read of arguing about isolation. I was actually hoping to avoid that, but i guess it wasnt meant to be. I just wanted to know in my situation how i could reach the best sound isolation as well acoustics, within a tight budget. Anyhow are you saying theres no way i could reach any level of isolation with a 300$ budget, or are you saying with my roomsize its impossible? If it can be done i guess i would be forced into spending the money to do, as this is something ill be doing for the rest of my days (as i have it planned so far) Or maybe ill just buy some more fiber board, 5/8" sheet rock, plywood, and some 3" acoustic foam and go nuts.

Thanks for your help,

- Mike

[d(-_-)b-Phones]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Ok, I give. Your right, and the REST of the whole damn community is wrong. Good luck.
fitZ

Wow.... you need help Rick.

[fitZ2]

Wow.... you need help Rick.

On the contrary. I'm not the one asking for it. I've already done my homework.

[halo206]

Okay! So I have some extra room on the sides of this isolation booth I'm planning out. Im going to "try" to make a "Resiliant Channel" in which loss of transmission will occur because the sound travels through one wall hits air and the goes through another surface. Does anyone know any place that explains what i need for materials etc? Can i put plywood on the outside and then fiber board and insulation material on the inside? Is it okay to have studs connecting the outer and inner part of the wall? I have made a 1.5" frame around the booth for 2 of the walls. I plan on using heavy duty velcro and some kind of removable seal in order to place and remove them. Then this leaves me with a ceiling which i cant take more than 10" off. Should i make a scaled down version or something? Anybody got any ideas?!

Thanks,

Mike!

[frederic]

Here is my vocal booth. It was built over an infrequently used stairwell, hence the first couple of pics and some in the middle, whereas you can see the floor is flipped up. Most people won't have to construct such a thing.

Essentially, my vocal booth is about 5'x7'9", constructed of 2x4's packed with 409 rigid fiberglass on the inside, and ordinary encased house fiberglass on the outside. This occured because I was originally going to use ordinary insulation, stapled it to the outside of the framing from the console room, and a friend of mine acquired 703 after I put the plywood up, so instead of tearing it all out I just left it and put the 703 in from the inside. The 409 maintained its thickness moreso than the home insulation anyway, so I'm not worried about it being effective, or not. Should be fine.

The walls inside and out are layered with 3/4" thick commercial grade plywood, 1/2" sheetrock on top of that, and 1/4" sheetrock on top of that. The plywood itself is probably not terribly useful acoustically, but it did allow for drywall screws to be zipped in anywhere and everywhere. Each screw was dipped in an epoxy, then zipped into whatever material its supposed to hold up.

The plywood was also epoxied to the studs (and deck screwed, screws dipped in epoxy), both layers of sheet rock were glued to the plywood and each other, and those screws were dipped in epoxy as well.

Mudded, sanded, painted.

Is it a perfect vocal booth? Nope. Fits my needs and is solid as hell.

You will notice in some of the pictures, there is a double outside window on the wall next to the stairwell that I built the vocal booth over. I intended to remove those, until I discovered the windows themselves are supported underneath by a steel beam, and another steel beam overhead. So, I put the windows back in and said f*ck it.

The vocal booth wall goes right between the two windows, and is tied into the structure of the steel beams above and below, as well as the window frame itself. I've already cut the interior shutters for both windows, but haven't loaded the 703. The depth is there to do so. I haven't found a green fabric that matches my moulding yet, that's all that is holding it up.

Because the flip-floor has a large 4" gap between its edge at the top of the stairs and the entry door, sound clearly escapes and enters the vocal booth, from the console room its built within. However, I've done a lot of testing of this and found its not going to be a problem, for this reason.

I record all acoustical instruments, and vocalists, dry as a bone. So if I, in the console room, are wearing headphones, nothing bleeds back into the booth. The booth, as is, cuts down all the machine noise of my hard disk recorders which is really what I wanted. At some point I'll revisit that gap and make another flipping part that is spring loaded, so when the floor goes down, this thing flips over, and gasket that as well.

I've already done some experimental recordings in that booth (even though the room isn't done, I simply stacked equipment in piles in the console room and sat on the floor), and recorded a vocalist, and I've found that it's pretty good overall. I had purchased some foam for the wall that the entry door is in, and planned to install a 3' wide x 7'8" high (ceiling height) 703 framed panel in the corner which the vocalist will be facing, but I may not have to do that. I have more recording and experimentation to do.

The window facing the console room (the white framed window) is an ordinary dual pane window (safetyglass) filled with argon, to which a carpenter friend of mine constructed another frame that fits inside the recessed window (its recessed on the booth side, flush with the console side), which will enable me to hang an angled, 1/4" thick piece of safety glass, to further isolate noise from the console room and the vocal booth. Its been constructed and painted, gaskets installed, all I have to do is mount the hinges on the bottom and the two latches on the top. Test fitting was successful. When its latched, the gaskets seal very nicely. I used generic automotive door gaskets from JC Whitney, they are rubber and easily worked around the perimeter of the window. They get compressed to about 1/2 their thickness, which is more than is done in automotive applications, and it seals very well. I put a battery operated doorbell between the angled, gasketed window and the existing window, held the angled window in its position so the gaskets were compressed, and my cousin pushed the doorbell. I could barely hear it on either side. Good test? Naaah. Was fun though

[halo206]

Nice Booth!

I also saw your console thread, thats looking good as well!

My control room is 2 floors above the iso booth, so i dont have to worry about bleed or anything, but i do have crazy neighbors that hate me so i still need the isolation, hehe. You said you used 409 and 703 between the walls? Which is the best way to go for the best results?

- Mike

[frederic]

I used 703 on the inside, facing the inside of the vocal booth.
I used regular sealed fiberglass insulation in the same wall, facing the console room.

Whenever I type 409, transpose it to 703. For some reason I type 409 even though I mean 703. I have no idea why. I'm thinking my brain has a short somewhere.

[halo206]

On my ceiling i have fiber board and drywall screwed into wooden studs. If i constructed 4 walls using the resilient channel method, would it have absolutely no effect on the sound isolation because of the ceiling being rigidly connected to the framing of the house, or could it possibly work pretty well? My floor would be conrete with carpet layered over it, btw. Maybe if i take extreme care in making sure the room is completely isolated?

Also im still wondering what the best choice for fiber insulation is when trying to build an isolation booth?

Thanks,
- Mike

[Innovations]

Originally Posted by halo206

Hello!

Thanks Innovations! for the reply. Its kind of ridiculous how many posts ive read of arguing about isolation. I was actually hoping to avoid that, but i guess it wasnt meant to be. I just wanted to know in my situation how i could reach the best sound isolation as well acoustics, within a tight budget. Anyhow are you saying theres no way i could reach any level of isolation with a 300$ budget, or are you saying with my roomsize its impossible? If it can be done i guess i would be forced into spending the money to do, as this is something ill be doing for the rest of my days (as i have it planned so far) Or maybe ill just buy some more fiber board, 5/8" sheet rock, plywood, and some 3" acoustic foam and go nuts.

Thanks for your help,

- Mike

Maybe an analogy would help.

Lets suppose you wanted to make a swimming pool. But for some reason two sides of the swimming pool have to be wire mesh. Not to worry! just make the other two sides really, really, really watertight. Buy you know that making the other two sides really watertight isn't going to do it if the other two are mesh. Sound is like that. It will escape through the wall that gives it the least resistance Walls for isolation heed to be heavy and sealed. Once you said that you couldn't build real walls on those two sides you were in trouble.

Now the most typical approach to take where you can't build anything is to build a freestanding vocal booth. Done well you can get maybe 20-30db of sound reduction. Now if what you are trying to record inside is not very loud (vocals. accoustic, violin, etc) and what is outside is not loud then that quantity of reduction may be enough and building a 4x4 freestanding booth for $300 in materials is within reach.

But when you said drum sets 2 things happen: First drumsets are loud, so the quantity of reduction needed for a vocal booth will not cut it. You need beefier leafs. Second, they are big so you will need more than a 4x4 booth. Both of these mean that your trip to Home Depot is going to set you back more than $300.

[halo206]

Originally Posted by halo206

On my ceiling i have fiber board and drywall screwed into wooden studs. If i constructed 4 walls using the resilient channel method, would it have absolutely no effect on the sound isolation because of the ceiling being rigidly connected to the framing of the house, or could it possibly work pretty well?

I am prepared to do what ever i have to get the best results i can. I understand that sound will escape, but i was wondering if it would have absolutely no effect on the isolation in the situatuation described above. Ill take your answer as being "no".

So what can i do to my ceiling to isolate it as best as possible? Lets say i have 4 walls that are permanent with studs, fiber iso, rc metal, and drywall on both sides. My ceiling is 85" tall, what should i apply in order to get the greatest effect while maintaining some of the headroom.

Thanks,
- MIke