How to get more tracks out of your boss recorder.

[manning1]

to 4 track and 8 track cassette and digital standalone users.
i'm going to describe a techique for getting a lot more tracks out of your
standalone multitrack recorder that lots of people ive known have used.
this will also save you a tone of work in track laying and time.
for the sceptics amongst you, try it once , and i think youll be surprised how much fuller your songs become.
band in a box (biab) is an auto accompianment generator.
as the name implies it generates a back up band. eg...drums, keys,
bass, guitar rhythm,(or other instruments of your choosing) and even melodies etc.
you can pick from hundreds of music styles.
so - instead of laboriously laying down say drums, bass, keys etc on your 4 track for example and chewing up
valuable limited tracks. fire up biab on a pc, and have it generate a back up band for you.
(you can even modify styles for example), then output through your sound cards stereo line
out to your 4 or 8 track cassette or whatever line input and record to two tracks.
by the time youve done this , you will have a very powerfull full sounding arrangement.
and literally this will save you hours of recording time.
one technique folks have used is to have two 4 track cassette units for example.
so you record the biab arrangement to 2 tracks of 4 track number one.
(which as ive said will be pretty darn powerfull). so now you have your bed tracks
done. then on the remaining two tracks add say your added live rhythm instruments.
then mixdown to the second 4 track to two tracks , this leaves you two blank tracks on your second
4 track for lead vocals.
now people with a 8 track digital standalone recorder could go even further. record the biab output to two tracks.
leaving 6 tracks on the 8 track digital recorder for live back up vocals, lead vocals,
lead guitar etc. and as you can mixdown internally on some 8 track digital recorders .
you could get even more. for example. if the biab output is on tracks
1 and 2 of the digital recorder, and youve filled up 6 more tracks -
you could bounce it all down say to tracks 7/8 on the digital recorder and STILL
have 6 more tracks to record on.
the foregoing techniques could save a major expensive upgrade to a 24 track standalone digital recorder.
keep an open mind. and youll find if you do it right using biab,
that you wont have to add a lot of tracks as the biab arrangement will be so full.
i hope this helps someone out there. its a trick lots of musicians ive known
have stumbled upon. for the sceptics - just try it !!

[Farview]

Wouldn't you have to laboriously program the bass line, key and drum parts and wouldn't that take longer than just performing them on instruments that you already can play?

[manning1]

you dont understand the program.
it AUTO GENERATES.
details...
pc...http://pgmusic.com/bandbox.htm
mac..http://pgmusic.com/band.htm

[72fender]

I had biab and it just wasn't for me. I brought a Squire P-Bass, learned to play bass, I already play guitar, brought a Casio keyboard and taught myself keyboard. Besides that, my computer and recorder weren't setup in the same room.

[manning1]

fender. sounds like a logistics problem to me with not being in the same room.
but the approach ive detailed works for thousands of people.
there are some superb examples of songs around done with biab.
i'm just trying to show a method for people to get more tracks out of their limited track counts.

[72fender]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't against your ideal. I've heard a few songs were people had used biab. I still didn't care for backing tracks, just my opinion.

[manning1]

fender. its all in the hands of the user. the reason i posted is ive had friends labor for hours and days over recording live tracks, bouncing down etc etc,
i mean hundreds of hours of work on a small digital or cassette based multitracker, and particularly for the cassette people get so much noise build up from bouncing, and the problem of running out of tracks.
it neednt sound canned if one developes ones expertise sufficiently.
also one nice thing that can sound good is laying real live drums over the top of the generated drums, or doing the same with bass, and other instruments. basically ..its the technique one employs and approach to the song.

[72fender]

I see where your suggestions would be useful to the people you describe.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by manning1

also one nice thing that can sound good is laying real live drums over the top of the generated drums, or doing the same with bass, and other instruments. basically ..its the technique one employs and approach to the song.

If you were to lay down real drums and bass, what would be the poit of the biab?

[manning1]

fairview . the point ?
listen to some songs sometime that have hit the charts.
real drums plus sequenced drums and other instruments.
from my discussions with audio engimeers who know way more than i is the sound picture and synergy that can develope between the two.
success - like everything - is purely how the engineer approaches the song.

[Farview]

It is really starting to sound like you get paid to sell this stuff.
I am aware that the combination of the 2 (real and electronic) can be a good thing. I just don't see how this would really facilitate the song writing process in a good way. It's very idea would take away the work that needs to be put into a song and arrangement that would make it something special (or even just your own)
Maybe I'm just old fashoned.

[undrgrnd studio]

I agree with the above comment that you are spamming. I just read an article yesterday about a company called Bzzagent that recruits regular people to do "word of mouth advertising". Do you get points that you can turn in for rewards or did you get a promo package or something. Honestly, any real musician would understand that a "band in a box" is not a realistic option for a recording artist as even we basement amateurs are.

[manning1]

undrgrnd, this is silly suggestion. i cant stop you thinking that..
but its totally untrue. if you open your mind a bit and do some google research via the google search engine you will find that loads of musicians are using these techniques. ive never heard of bzzagent.
here are some links..real musicians . read and understand.
http://www.charmedmusic.com/
http://www.tir.com/~rharv
http://www.cyberus.ca/~ifraser/songs2
http://www.wesleydick.com/
http://www.davehoskins.bizland.com/
http://www.ericendres.com/
http://rthigpen.com/
http://www.members.shaw.ca/glitch/index.html
http://www.riojazz.com/
http://www.russell-demussel.be/simonread.html
http://www.aei.ca/~denisl/index.html
http://members.cowtown.net/ontap/
http://www.russell-demussel.be/russ.html

[undrgrnd studio]

They sound like cheezy 80's synth fake music. LOL I listened to the first two. Sorry, if you really think that sounds good then thats fine, but if you are actually spamming for some gain I think thats totally bunk.

[manning1]

re cheese. thats because of your synth sound in your pc .
you were using your pc to play back - werent you ?
synth sounds in a pc ARE CHEESY. you have to use proper midi modules
with decent synthesis engines in them.
you and fairview ...as you are both soooo sceptical should really talk to some seasoned biab users on the biab forums, and then youll start to realise the advantages.

[Farview]

I downloaded a few of the mp3's ( my midi stuff shouldn't effect anything) and all I heard was cleche' riddled mediocrity. I suppose it is fine, but actually playing the parts might spark an idea that would make the song really special.
Would you ever be able to get something like this out of it? http://www.farviewrecording.com/special/test.mp3

This is something I threw together this afternoon. It is pretty straight forward until the end. What style catagory would cover this?

[manning1]

i think as i said fairview you have to talk to some users.
and get a better feel. maybe it is for you and maybe it isnt.
ive been having problems downloading music - my isp seems to have a problem sometime.
the best thing you could do - is get it from the horses mouth and contact pg support. if you notice there is live chat where you can contact pg support on line. tell them the music styles your interested in,
they are very customer orientated ive found on the rare occasion ive needed them.
or email them. also notice pg offers a unconditional 30 day money back guarantee. so - just try it !

[manning1]

heres the live chat with support link. it only works if i remember during the biz week.
http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/...ref=1&AEPARAMS

[72fender]

BIAB couldn't do this: http://music.download.com/thouston/3...ng_song_artist

[manning1]

fender . which song ? or both ?
how long you been playing by the way ??

[72fender]

Both songs were done on a BR-1600. I've been playing since '72.

[zipperhead]

Not to be a pain in the butt or anything, but if we've established that PC soundcards sound cheesy, or was that CHEESY, why would anyone use them, no matter how wonderful the biab programming is?

[manning1]

zipper. seasoned people using biab dont use the pc sound card.
they use proper high quality sound /synthesis generating midi modules
external to the pc and driven by pc midi out.

[bigdaddyd]

Has it finally come to this. My era is Rush, Styx, Triumph.... and grew to love grunge- Alice and the like, and even bought albums like Days of the new, Creed, etc... MUSICIANS! Has music finally come to the point that its computer generated. I know its been used somewhat in the past, but are the computer wiz's going to drive out the musicians eventually.

The product you talk about BIAB could be used as a high end click track. But the thought of letting a computer basically write everything just seems wrong.

I know a lot of music is done this way, but I guess Im adressing more Rock, or whatever you would call whats left of rock. I want a band. If you publish an album with a computer, better sound like a full group or youll have to sell it to my kids over my dead body. And good luck with that as they are very well informed.

Any of you that think your forming a band between you and your computer, go buy Moving Pictures by Rush. Listen to Tom Sawyer. 1st off, thats real music. 2nd, My 9 year old can pull off 90% of that song on his set, (as his father grins ear to ear) and my 13 year old can play the entire song on his bass. Thats Music. Thats becoming a Musician! Not buying your stupid BIAB.

Im all for anyone creating music with a PC and going after that market. But If the talented indivuduals that play instruments are called musicians, what do the musicians call you??
D

[warble]

Please don't let PG come out with any new software, I have "ad nauseam". BIAB might be spectacular for getting ideas down, but as far as recording its results on a professional project, not a chance. I'd reach for live musicians to avoid the "canned midi" type sound. I'm sure if I go to PG Music's website though, I'll find that everyone there is a professional musician, and everyone uses BIAB for their recordings.