CD Duplications or Replications ..huh?

[Dracon]

Hello:

I'm trying to inform my self and price out whether I should end up buying my own CD Copying machine or go with the professionals that do it for a living.

I've been to several sites and they offer CD Duplication and CD Replication. I'm not sure I know what either is, and could anyone explain it to me?

In addition, and more appropriate to this forum. Does anyone have any suggestions which name brand for CD copiers is the best or does anyone do this at all?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Replication usually refers to pressing a CD, while duplication refers to burning a CD.

Replication is usually only cost-effective in larger quantities (500+) because a glass master is used. This is the method used to produce all commercial CDs.

Duplication is cost-effective for smaller quantities (<500) and is no different than you burning a CD-R copy on your computer (except for more stringent error tolerance and checking).

Duplicators are quite good if all you want are CDs with maybe thermal black ink imaging on the fascia, but if you want full-colour silk-screened graphics, you'll have to deal with Duplication houses...

[lpdeluxe]

Another important issue is that burned CDs will not last. When the dye is exposed to light or heat, it will dissolve, leaving your clients with coasters. Burning CDs is fine for handouts, but I think you're ripping people off to sell them.

[Massive Master]

If you're going in lots of a t least 100, DiskFaktory does some of the absolute best work I've seen. The print is a full-color thermal print, which looks as good or better than tight screen print. The laser print graphics are as good a quality you can get.

I'm not easily impressed by short-run dupes... These guys are seriously impressive. And relatively cheap at around $2 a copy, wrapped & ready.

No, I'm not on their payroll

[billisa]

I've used Crystal Clear Sound out of Texas. If you're interested I'll post the phone #. They've done great work for me and the graphics on matte finish Taiyo-Yudens is excellent.

MicroBoards makes a nice duplicator (same company as Taiyo-Yuden).

[Atterion]

My friends band just used Disc Factory too. He's thoroughly impressed. They did nice work, and it was considerably cheaper than some of the other manufacturers he looked into (Disc Makers, etc.).

[Ed Dixon]

I think the key question here is what kind of volume you need to produce.

Ed

[noisedude]

Is this for after you've finished your stuff at a studio? Having paid to have your project done properly, I would think a nice touch would be to have them pressed properly. In my experience CD-Rs last a couple of years. Some of mine are three years old and starting to go - it doesn't seem to make much difference either whether they've been played (i.e. been exposed to laser heat) a lot or not.

[Dracon]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Replication usually refers to pressing a CD, while duplication refers to burning a CD.
...

Hey Blue Bear thanks for all the information. This informs me about something of which I obviously had no knowledge.

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

Another important issue is that burned CDs will not last. ...

Hey lpdeluxe thanks, 'cause there is only one way to go then. I didn't know that CD-Rs deteriorate over time. I've worked with CD-Rs for five years and haven't seen any problems. However, I usually don't keep CD-Rs for that long a period of time.

Hey Massive Master & Atterion I'll keep the Disc Factory in mind.
I have no idea what kind of volume I will be doing, but there only one way to go, if the product is going to be offered to the consumer. They are paying their hard earned dollar to purchase my product. I want repeat business, not loose potential future customers. Besides, word of mouth can make you or kill you.

[Dracon]

Has anyone heard of Alpha Multimedia Group.

They are local in Tacoma and they offer CD Duplication at a pretty good cost. Has anyone heard anything about them good or bad?

Here is a website which has a list of businesses that perform Duplication and Replication.

http://www.recordlabelresource.com/list2.asp?catid=5

[billisa]

Originally Posted by Dracon

Has anyone heard of Alpha Multimedia Group.

They are local in Tacoma and they offer CD Duplication at a pretty good cost. Has anyone heard anything about them good or bad?

Here is a website which has a list of businesses that perform Duplication and Replication.

http://www.recordlabelresource.com/list2.asp?catid=5

Thanks for that link... Here's the one for the people I've worked with:
www.crystalclearcds.com

[Dracon]

Originally Posted by billisa

Thanks for that link... Here's the one for the people I've worked with:
www.crystalclearcds.com

Hey Thanks!
I'm assuming you are giving me the link 'cause you like them or are they the only outfit near you?

I take that back, I just looked at where you are from and where the company is. Unless they have moved Texas near Conneticut or vice versa, they are not very close to you. Thanks for the link.

[Dracon]

Hey billisa that website you gave has an explanation on the diff between the Replication and Duplication process

It might be a good idea to keep this link for the forum

http://www.crystalclearcds.com/cdman...ring_faq.shtml

[lpdeluxe]

That's cool that there's some standardization of the terms. I occasionally burn CDs for people from old reel-to-reels, LPs, or whatnot, and I always include an explanation about what a burned CD is and warn them to keep the CDR out of sunlight, heat, etc.

[Dracon]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

That's cool that there's some standardization of the terms. I occasionally burn CDs for people from old reel-to-reels, LPs, or whatnot, and I always include an explanation about what a burned CD is and warn them to keep the CDR out of sunlight, heat, etc.

You know people keep telling me that CDR will not last for more than three years. I'v had CDRs for at least four and I have not encountered problems. Granted they are Data CDRs, and I work in IT, so we usually keep them in a Cabinet in a CD Case of somekind or at least in CD sleeves.

Usually heat is not a problem in IT since computers need to be cool. So Sunlight, and heat will really kill them huh?

[lpdeluxe]

Yes, I have seen CDRs where the surface looks like an oil slick. The dyes dissolve, apparently, which leaves you with a coaster. It's the reason I don't believe in selling burned CDs. They're good for mix checks or souvenirs but not for a permanent record.

[noisedude]

I agree with that ... the myth of costless CD production has been exposed by their short lifespans. Pity really.

[Dracon]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

...The dyes dissolve, apparently, which leaves you with a coaster. ...

I didn't know the sun would breakdown the dye but, it does make sense. Try leaving anything plastic out in the sun and eventually you have powder. The UV rays just kill PVC and plastic unless they are specifically treated for that application. I guess the dye is heat sensitive and not necessarily UV sensitive.

Anyway, now that I am educated I would never pass a lesser product to the consumer. I've worked in retail before, and unless you have an unlimited number of customers (which most business don't), it does not pay to make your customers dissatisfied. I have known that the very cheap CDs (which are plain and do are not mean to be written on), scratch or are useless if you try and write on them (even a sharpie).

[lpdeluxe]

It's funny, because for those of us who were around when CDs came out, they were advertised as "perfect sound forever." If you had a well-used collection of vinyl that was a real selling point. Then, when CDRs were available, there was an understandable tendency to think they were as indestructible as the stamped ones.

I just recorded a 2-record vinyl LP into Adobe Audition, cleaned it up, and burned it all to CD for a friend. Tell ya what, those LPs were in pristine condition, and it took me 2 passes of click & pop eliminator per track (and a separate run of noise reduction, and the occasional tweak of a single noise) to get them listenable by modern standards.

[billisa]

Originally Posted by Dracon

I'v had CDRs for at least four and I have not encountered problems. Granted they are Data CDRs, and I work in IT, so we usually keep them in a Cabinet in a CD Case of somekind or at least in CD sleeves.

Usually heat is not a problem in IT since computers need to be cool. So Sunlight, and heat will really kill them huh?

It's funny, but I've kept about 20 or so CDR's in my car through intense heat and extreme cold, for 3+ years. None have exhibited any problems. Naturally, I'm still very careful about my recording Master CDR's and Backup CDR's. They're kept in a nice, dry metal case, in sleeves.

Still, I wonder what the real shelf life on a decently cared for CDR is. Perhaps there are differences between those first manufactured, and those of later origin? Name brand versus way off brand?

A 3 year lifespan seems rather short, at least in my limited experience...

[billisa]

I found this via the CLIR.ORG site, referring to a paper published by the NIST:

"Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more...

Few, if any, life expectancy reports for these discs have been published by independent laboratories. An accelerated aging study at NIST estimated the life expectancy of one type of DVD-R for authoring disc to be 30 years if stored at 25°C (77°F) and 50% relative humidity. This testing for R discs is in the preliminary stages, and much more needs to be done."

[OneArmedScissor]

In my experience, burned CDs definitely do not last very long. However, it might very well be due to the quality of the CD and the burner. Mine are just cheap 50 for $10 types made with the standard CD writer that came with my computer. They seem to scratch very easily, and be affected greatly by the scratches. I don't think mine ever last quite a year, and that is in a best-case scenario. That is just from swapping them from my portable CD player to my car stereo. I don't abuse them or leave them exposed very often at all.

Even if one of my "real" CDs is covered in scratches (not big cuts, but just little scratches all over), they still work perfectly.

Those are just my observations.

[Dracon]

Originally Posted by billisa

It's funny, but I've kept about 20 or so CDR's in my car through intense heat and extreme cold, for 3+ years. None have exhibited any problems. Naturally, I'm still very careful about my recording Master CDR's and Backup CDR's. They're kept in a nice, dry metal case, in sleeves.

Still, I wonder what the real shelf life on a decently cared for CDR is. Perhaps there are differences between those first manufactured, and those of later origin? Name brand versus way off brand?

A 3 year lifespan seems rather short, at least in my limited experience...

Yeah! See, does anyone know if perhaps I don't know Fuji is better or worse than say No name brand.

[kesterdevine]

Keep in mind also that just because you employ a manufacturing company does not mean you will automatically get "replication" and not "duplication".

Many companies offer less expensive short runs that are "duplication".

Quite often any of these super deals that you see for example 200 CD's for $299 are usually duplications. Alot of times the packaging will look pretty good etc...but the discs will still be burned CDR's.

As Blue Bear said, the "replication" requires a glass master and is simply more expensive to reproduce.

Be certain to look into the details of which service and product you are buying.

Best Of Luck!

[billisa]

Originally Posted by Dracon

Yeah! See, does anyone know if perhaps I don't know Fuji is better or worse than say No name brand.

From having looked around more, I've found that the manufacturing process has a huge impact on durability. This involves the dyes used, the base, the coating...

On one site related to the storage of medical records, I noted a promise of 200 year durability. I believe the disks involved were Mitsui with a gold base.

Really, CDR's only need to last as long as the next storage medium arrives. In 20 years will there be any CD players around? Perhaps the real issue of "durability" is more about the playback technology. CDR's you can't play will be pretty worthless no matter what their condition is.