recording live through a PA system Help

[msfessler]

I am a musician first and not a gear head so take it easy on the tech stuff. I want to record live performances and am trying to decide the best way to get CD quality with out breaking the bank. should I use minidisc or 4trac recorder and can i use them direct from the PAs Tape outputs or what.
thanks.

[manning1]

do you want just to record the stereo mix OR each mic to for example a seperate track on a computer is one way. or to a standalone recorder
with multiple inputs ???

[msfessler]

Ultimatly I want it to be simple, you know, like plug into the tape out of the PA, start the machine and record the whole set. I am a One Man Show so I am also the sound engineer. but I also want to be able to tweek the mix after the fact. Any chance???

[bh4554]

that's why you need a four track rather than just a minidisc recorder /cd burner. To be able to record each signal/input/instrument to a different track you need to be able to connect the output from each from the pa into the inout for each track. alternatively use a computer with a sequencer such as cubase and you're sorted.

[manning1]

if you want to tweak EACH TRACK individually for eq, effects,comp/lim etc etc after the performanc (which is what a lot of big acts do back at a studio) then you must record each mic to its own track.
heres a way to do it.
for this you will need a mixer capable of sending the mic signals to a multi input sound card in a pc for example. eg..a yamaha mg mixer and a delta sound card are inexpensive. also youll need a pretty powerfull pc of some
sort running multitrack software , for example powertracks that i use
is very inexpensive and does 48 tracks. ive used it many times just like a big ole multitrack recorder i used to have. (pgmusic.com).
the problem with using pa mixers is they often dont have the quality for recording. i would check if your pa mixer has insert points on the individual mic channels. if it does - then these inserts could feed the multi input sound card. however if you dont want to lug a computer around ...
maybe you want to look at a standalone multitrack digital recorder.
music123.com, and zzounds.com and many other retailers have them. but some are not cheap.peace.

[msfessler]

Ok, it sounds like I need a multi tracker. But can I plug into the recorder then out to the PA. and still have 3 seperate signals going in to the mixer for the stage mix. I run 1 vocal mic, 1 guitar mic and 1 guitar plugged into the PA. Also what recorder would be best for under 500 bucks, Like I said earlier I'm not much of a gear head, so it needs to be user friendly.
Thanks

[manning1]

youll have to look at different standalone recorders, and their jack configurations, and how your pa accepts inputs and ITS jack configs.
i suspect youll come stereo out of digital recorder (with mics plugged in)
into a stereo line input in the pa.
by the way - you shouldnt be plugging guitars into a pa.
unless it specifically says guitar input. you should be using a di box or equivalent.

[noisedude]

Woah, step back!!

Ok.

Unless you have a majorly well-equipped PA desk you're not going to have direct outputs for each channel. So you're going to need THREE auxiliary sends to keep things separate. Not got them either? Well you're looking at a stereo pair then. Right?

Well ... maybe. Except when you play live, all three things are panned to the centre, yes? Well you might as well be in mono then. Because once you've recorded, you will be!

Therefore - EITHER use the tape outputs OR ONE auxiliary send. Use the tapes if you just want a copy of the levels for the PA, use the aux send if you are able to set up a recording mix. It might be different from the PA one.

You can do what manning said, and plug your stuff into a multitracker and then go out into the PA - but then if you make a level change while you're playing, it will spoil your recording and vice versa.

If you want to go on to multi-tracking at home ... check this little website for a quick introduction to the very basics:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nikkeefe/

[HangDawg]

Originally Posted by noisedude

Woah, step back!!

Ok.

Unless you have a majorly well-equipped PA desk you're not going to have direct outputs for each channel.

That's why it was said to use the channel inserts. Most mixers have insert points. Even the cheap ones.

[msfessler]

Ok, I'll tell you how my rig is set up now, and maybe you will get a better idea of how to help. I have 2 mics going directly in to my peavey xr-600 (mono) powered mixer, one for vocal and one for guitar then I have my guitar
(Taylor 514ce) plugged into an ART preamp processor which is plugged into the mixer. then I have a lexicon processor into the effects in for the whole mix. comming out of the PAs monitor out I have a small EQ for the powered monitor. and then from the speaker outputs I have the main speakers.
I am looking at the Tascam dp01-fx recorder because it looks like the most flex in my price range. My fans are asking for CDs. Since I always want to make My fans happy, I want to make a live recording complete with their hoots and hollers and general mischief that makes my show what it is.
Since my shows tend to get a little rowdy and there is usually some "moderate responsible" drinking, I want the recording process to be a relitivly simple. however I want it to be of good quality, so as to fulfill my ultimate goal of selling millions of CDs and becoming a billionair off stolen songs, then moving to the caribean before the lawsuits start coming in.
Rest assured I won't forget the people who helped me along the way.

[HangDawg]

Maybe you would be best off just doing a stereo recording of the room.

[msfessler]

The trouble with that is, if you have a crapy sounding room and a great show, your stuck with a crapy recording of a great show in a crapy room. ergo no billionair.

[HangDawg]

Just looked at the manual for you PA head. Looks like you'll be stuck with stereo from the tape outs.

[noisedude]

Well look. We can't take any chances on this billionaire thing, so you better use the tape outs. I'll PM you my Swiss bank account details ASAP and you can start some megabucks transfers.

[msfessler]

Looks like I went full circle on this idea.

The more you learn, the more you find out how little you know.
Thanks for the help. Peace!!!

[Han]

When I do a recording on location on 24 tracks I use the inserts of the board as an output, because the inserts are directly after the board's pre's, before the EQ and everyting else.

This gives me a better sound quality and the mix is done in the studio anyway on a much bigger board.

There's nothing wrong with using the inserts as an output, you have to make a couple of cables with the 1/4 jack's tip and ring soldered together to the hot wire though.

[msfessler]

Can you explain that to me like I'm an 8 year old. are you saying that the 1/4" and XLR inputs will work as an output.

[HangDawg]

Originally Posted by msfessler

Can you explain that to me like I'm an 8 year old. are you saying that the 1/4" and XLR inputs will work as an output.

No

you do not have channel inserts on your PA head so you don't need to worry about it.

[Treeline]

Your recording options are limited with the PA head you have; all you can do with it is to tap into the tape outs (lower RCA jacks on front) into some recorder that can handle two signals. I don't know if it will be a stereo signal or two identical mono signals. But you could easily pull signal off the head.

I would look for dedicated units rather than dragging a PC all over the place. The recording unit could be almost anything, but these little suckers work hard for a living and are easy to carry. Might make sense getting started.

Little Fostex

Another way to go would be more complicated but would allow you to use your PA head and track up to eight signals simultaneously into eight seperate tracks that you could then mix. Start with a mic splitter for a hundred bucks:

Behringer splitter

The mics go into this unit and one direct line of each goes to the recording unit. The split signal of each goes to the PA head as you now have it. You will need more cables.

Again, a dedicated recorder will be more likely to work well in the field than a PC, which can get tempermental - not good in the middle of a set. So look at something like this - allowing you to record multiple tracks simultaneously. These units (like the little Fostex) have onboard CD burners so you can make a demo.

Bigger Fostex

You can also do some research and scour ebay for used units. Here's one like mine presently for sale. They should be available for about $ 600 - 800. You'd need to get a burner separately. I use mine to do submixes and then transfer signal to the computer, where I fool more with it.

AKAI DPS16 10 gig unit I would look for 20 G units with a v.3.0 or better operating system. I like these because the A/D converters are fantastic; they sound really good for the money. My live recording rig is a 20 gig DPS16.

Another option:

Korg D1600 MkII

It would pay to do some research, download and read manuals etc. to get a good handle on this. But there are some options available to you for under a thousand bucks. I'd stay away from flash media units as they tend to record in a compressed format like mp3 - not good enough for what you want.

[DigitalSmigital]

We have to use a seperate PA to mike the back line in a gig, and mine is only a two buss stereo Carvin PA, so to get a decent recording on a four track recorder we have to use the Line Outs for two signals and the effects sends for the other two. I'd never thought about using the ch. inserts, will that work???

[DigitalSmigital]

Originally Posted by Han

There's nothing wrong with using the inserts as an output, you have to make a couple of cables with the 1/4 jack's tip and ring soldered together to the hot wire though.

Ohhhhh, so I need to read the entire post!

Right!