Snare OH

[ecktronic]

I am confused, as i have read on this site alot that the OHs can give the jist of the snare sound with the close snare mic just being used for attack.
Heres where i am confused. When mixing, if you turn the OHs up enough to get even a quarter of a semi decent level to use for the JIST of the snare, then the cymbals are too loud. I have thought about it for a while and cant think of a mic placement that would make the snare loud enough compared to the cymbals. Apart from pointing both OHs right at the snare from behind the drummers shoulders, and hoping that that the cymbals will be picked up properly, but not too much, to give a nice sound.
Would the condensor mics (c1000 example) pick up more snare than cymbals if the capsules of the OHs were at the same level as the cymbals pointing down at the snare? Could get in the way of the drummer unless raising the cymbals a bit.

Im just rambling my thoughts as i go, so dont be confused.
Any comments on my ramblings would be welcome.

[tubedude]

Try putting the overheads out in front of the kit about 5 feet away, at about snare level, between snare level and kick. Be careful around front of kick it can get too boomy in the wrong spots. You should have them about 5 feet from the snare and about 5 feet apart. Try it and see if you like it. You can adjust them up and down to get more cymbal, and try moving them farther back for more balance. But the farther back you go, the better or deader your room needs to be. See if ir works for ya, let me know.
Paul

[GABritton]

It all depends on the style you're recording. I've got great sounds from using two Shure SM-81 condensers (one over the hi-hat, and kinda over the ride & toms) and a kick mic.
Miking the hi-hat is great, becuase you get the cripsiness of the snare without the meat, which you can get on your close mic. You can pull the hi-hat in/out as much as you'd like, but if your drummer stays on an open hi-hat the entire time, you won't get much definition, just a bunch of loud sibilance.

Mess around w/ placement and actually listen to it. You can think of great placements and ask everyone here, but until you try them out, you never really know.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Compress and EQ the OH's to bring out the snare and minimize the cymbals.

[KevinDrummer]

Also, the overheads don't need to be the primary source for the snare. A close mic will do ya fine (just finished SK dark tower VII) for the "jist" as well as the "attack". Try it with the overheads adjusted for the cymbals and crank your snare close mic a little bit more and see how you like the result.

Long days and pleasant nights to ya.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Personally I put up a third "middle" overhead exclusively for the snare. I will take that overhead and really bring out the snare on that, while leaving the other two overheads fairly natural (800hz cut, 2:1 compression, maybe some 12khz boost).

[Bulls Hit]

Probably the easiest solution is not to hit the cymbals so hard.

I've found that going lighter on the cymbals doesn't change the sound of the cymbal but makes a big difference to how much snare you can pick up. And to me the snare in the OH just plain sounds better than the close miced boy

[In Tune Audio]

Bull Hit is right. Really good session drummers will hit the skins harder than usual in the studio, than they do life. It isn't asdifficult to get cymbals to cuts through the mix as it is with the drums. It takes a really good drummer to do this, but, the drums won't need much compression, because they will practically be mixed for you when going to tape.

With the overheads, try to have the snare in the center of the stereo field. That way, the snares will be picked up in both overheards, (giving you more snare level), plus it will give your kit balance between right and left in the mix.

[radioliver]

The greatest tip for drum recording I ever got was a special oh positioning technique. Place the first oh directly over the snare at about two sticks length from center of snare. Then, place the second oh over the drummers right shoulder (if he's right-handed) at the same distance from the snare (two sticks). Then, the tricky part is to make sure that both mics are also the same distance from center of bass drum. Only adjust the second overhead until it's in the perfect spot. Both oh should be pointing at the snare.

With this technique, the stereo image is really good and the cymbals aren't too loud. You really get a good balanced drum kit sound. The other advantage is that there is no phase cancellation for the snare and bass drum between the 2 oh. The reason for this is that the snare is at the same distance from both oh's (2 sticks length) and the bass drum is also at the same distance from both oh's (the distance depends but it is usually around 5 sticks length).

Try this out...should help a lot with your drums!!!

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by radioliver

The other advantage is that there is no phase cancellation for the snare and bass drum between the 2 oh. The reason for this is that the snare is at the same distance from both oh's (2 sticks length) and the bass drum is also at the same distance from both oh's (the distance depends but it is usually around 5 sticks length).

That's true but you still need to watch for cancellation between the OHs and kick mic, and between OHs & snare mic

[ecktronic]

Cheers everyone for the feedback, didnt expect soo much of it, suppose it is a pretty important and complex part of recording.
Cloneboy, i like your idea of using an extra OH exclusivly for the snare. I think that would work well.
The thing is that although i am asking for peoples feedback i have already tracked eveything for the project i am currently working on. But when i do my next project (probaly a live recording) i will try out some ideas.
I used the setup of 2 OHs (Neumenn <cold be rode> nt2s) <lovely mics oooohhh> around half a foot above the cymbals pointing towards the snare. I LOVE the snare sound off the OHs but the cymbals are a bit loud in relation. So for mixing i mostly had to use the SM57 close mic for the snare with 2.75:1 compression, reverb, and EQ set with 2 curves at certain frequencies with around 5dB gain and a wide curve (big Q?). For the OHs i filtered out all frequencies from the low mids down.
The hihat mic played a decent role in the overall sound of the snare and luckily i didnt get any phasing or cancelling.
I am very happy with the results and i will be posting samples soon, so please look out for them as i will be wanting praise (or diss) on my work.
The OHs picked up more of a full bodied snare rattle sound whereas the close mic picked up only the attack with very little decay. I found this quite strange, but i dont know enough about mic placement to be able to predict these things. I will say i was partly lucky with the outcome.

[peopleperson]

All good suggestions. I too would first think to have the drummer cool it a bit on the cymbals first and if possible. Recording is capturing audio. I always try to start at the source of that audio.

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by peopleperson

All good suggestions. I too would first think to have the drummer cool it a bit on the cymbals first and if possible. Recording is capturing audio. I always try to start at the source of that audio.

To get certain sounds out of the cymbal (like a punchy crash), you must play it full force. They are cymbals - they are loud. After a certain point, they don't really get any louder.

[Farview]

The drummer is not playing the snare hard enough. The drumset is one instrument, not a collection of many. The drummer needs to use the proper dynamics and mix himself as he is playing.

[Ronan]

This has sort of been said already, but if the OHs or mics in front of the kit are not getting a pretty good balance between the snare and the cumbals that is mostly a performance issue.

Also you need to make sure that the snare drum is not too ringy with a long sustained overtone. Aside from all the other things that will get messed up in the mix because it it, the snare will loose its presence in the OHs and room mics

[TripleJ]

Kevin, I think you will find that a drumkit sounds alot better when its not thrashed. Cymbals choke themselves when played too loudly and with poor technique. Often these two things go hand in hand.

If you ever watch a good studio player they won't thrash the kit at all but tend to look very relaxed with minimal unnecessary movement.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TripleJ

Kevin, I think you will find that a drumkit sounds alot better when its not thrashed. Cymbals choke themselves when played too loudly and with poor technique. Often these two things go hand in hand.

If you ever watch a good studio player they won't thrash the kit at all but tend to look very relaxed with minimal unnecessary movement.

Those studio guys look very relaxed but they are beating the crap out of those drums (but not the cymbals)
I had Rod Morgenstien in the studio, when I looked through the glass it didn't look like he was hitting very hard. When I went into the drum room I thought my head was going to implode every time he hit the snare.
Don't be fooled by what these guys look like they are doing.

[TripleJ]

Thats not my experience.

[ecktronic]

I suppose in a perfect world every drummer going into a studio would be a pro session drummer, but it aint so i would say its the technicians job to work round these differences of playing styles and make the best of it.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I suppose in a perfect world every drummer going into a studio would be a pro session drummer, but it aint so i would say its the technicians job to work round these differences of playing styles and make the best of it.

It is the engineers job to make the best of it but that doesn't change the cause of the problem. There are ways around it, mostly editing. It is also the engineers job to mention things like this to the players. This helps make the players get better at their instrument and makes thing easier in the future.

[KevinDrummer]

Originally Posted by TripleJ

Kevin, I think you will find that a drumkit sounds alot better when its not thrashed. Cymbals choke themselves when played too loudly and with poor technique. Often these two things go hand in hand.

If you ever watch a good studio player they won't thrash the kit at all but tend to look very relaxed with minimal unnecessary movement.

The part about the cymbals choking themselves is simply untrue (for most cymbals). Sure - you can hit a cymbal too hard to produce the desired sound (you don't hammer the ride in a light jazz song, for example). I've been playing drums for 23 years and I know. Even the best session drummers (actually - especially the best) don't change their style for the recording session - they are thinking about being in pocket and getting the part right.

It's the sound engineers job to capture that drummer's sound.

[Farview]

The best session drummers don't have to change their style for the studio, they play appropriately already.

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by KevinDrummer

To get certain sounds out of the cymbal (like a punchy crash), you must play it full force.

Disagree.

Bonham, one of the heaviest hitters in the business used to pound the drums and caress the cymbals

[punkin]

Thats strange...I can't seem to get enough cymbal from the OH's but plenty of the rest of the kit.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by punkin

Thats strange...I can't seem to get enough cymbal from the OH's but plenty of the rest of the kit.

I have completely the opposite problem. All comes down to the drums and the drummer.