Mixing distorted guitars Rick Rubin style

[ecktronic]

Any folk out there got pro experience with mixing distorted guitars?I have two guitars and used a 57 and a 58 on different speakers for tracking. Used a marshall dsl100 tube amp with 1960 4x12 cab. The two guitar tones are quite different but both play major parts in the mix. Both rythym alot of the time.
I was wondering if anyone had any tips atall on this matter of mixing.
I amnt sure whether to use a little compression or not yet. I have heard that if you dont hear a visible difference from using an effect, then dont use it, but when listening to commercial CDs like System of a down they must use some compression to give more body to them. The guitar tracks have good levels. By this i mean that when the guitars are heavy they are at a pretty consistent levels. Compression is not needed to bring down some parts of the waves and because of this i am confused as to whether i should even use compression.
I know that i should just listen and hear what is best, but i aint a pro, so any info from experience would be of a great help to me.

[ryanlikestorock]

My understanding about distorted guitar sounds is that 90% of your sound comes from tracking. The right amp, guitar, mics, placement (phasing), what format you're recording to, the board you use, pre-amps, etc.

Now that you have the sound recorded, you can work with the remaining 10% of the sound with compression if you like, but you may just take the dynamics out of the sound and ruin the mix.

Try something subtle like a tube simulator or different reverbs at 4-5% mix to see what that does to the sound. Really though, what you're hearing currently is 90% of what you're going to have in the end.

[ecktronic]

Cheers man. Just suttleties in the efects department then. But dont bands like linkin park use loads of processing to get that sound? Or is it just their amazing set up they have.
I am about 80% happy with the way the guitars have been tracked. So i should still be able to get a semi pro sound outa that. I dont have a tube plug in, so will just use a comp-sc or something from pro tools.

[maskedman72]

what you are asking is covered in great detail in 3 parts here. there is amazing info in these 3 links. read all of it. they cover guitar compression in great detail in part 2.
enjoy!!!!

-jay


Here are the links:

Part I:
http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=4095

Part II:
(Mainly a compiling of Slipperman's posts from Part I with some banter).
http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7486

Part III:
http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewto...p?t=9419&postd ays=0&postorder=&start=0

[Cloneboy Studio]

To get good guitar sounds you have to start with the tone you want to capture and further refine it with some eq. Generally I don't like too much compression on electric guitar as the signal is already grossly compressed in the amp.

Bands like Linkin Park are more than likely *HIGHLY* overdubbed, with 6-8 tracks of guitar minimum. Additionally, each take has probably been punched in to perfection, time aligned, cut-n-pasted until it is perfect.

Having a good console/preamp probably helps. IMHO the mic preamp is a large determiner of guitar sound "depth".

[Ronan]

The system of a downn stuff is very heavily compressed and limited. For what its worth, Rick Rubin does not engineer of mix records.

[ecktronic]

Enginering is the part of tracking, not mixing. I thought the mixing was up to the producer. Am i wrong?
What does the producer (rick rubin) actually do then if i am wrong?

[BrettB]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

To get good guitar sounds you have to start with the tone you want to capture and further refine it with some eq. Generally I don't like too much compression on electric guitar as the signal is already grossly compressed in the amp.

Bands like Linkin Park are more than likely *HIGHLY* overdubbed, with 6-8 tracks of guitar minimum. Additionally, each take has probably been punched in to perfection, time aligned, cut-n-pasted until it is perfect.

Having a good console/preamp probably helps. IMHO the mic preamp is a large determiner of guitar sound "depth".

I don't always agree with the heavy overdubbing part. Many overdubs can clutter a mix. Some of the most powerful guitar albums, like Rage Against The Machine for example have only 2 overdubs as a maximum. If you have the right tone and good mix, they will blast out of your speakers. Many overdubs can't hide a crappy tone.

[spoonie g]

Originally Posted by BrettB

Many overdubs can't hide a crappy tone.

.....but I think they are used to hide a crappy player.

[11miles]

I've never liked the linkin park guitars.
Just to muddy for my taste and though the mix is still superb i would still go for the RATM guitars any time.

If you like heavy guitars maybe you should try this:
I dont know if you are familiar with the German band RAmmstein?
The guitars are just great. Really great.
Their sound was enormous on their debut album from '95 and just got bigger with evry next record.
For reference
1. Asche Zu Asche (Album-HERZELEID)
2. Buck Dich (A-Sehnsucht)
3. Ich Will (A-Mutter).
The last is in my opinion THE guitar song, as fas as heavyness is concerned!

The sound is really heavy and still very good mix on the end!

The guitarists use MEsa Boogies on stage and i am not sure but it was said that they layed 24 tracks of guitar(overdubs) on the Mutter record.


How do they get it to sound so hard?

As far as i know it has something to do with delaying the track. Not adding delay, but delaying the whole track(overdub for 7-10ms).
And all 24 tracks are of course spliced, moved, and most of all recorded almost perfectly!

Something to listen for. I really suggest it.

About the RATM?
I really think that is one hell of a good record. Hands up, Andy Wallace

[ecktronic]

Cheers yall. Yeah nice guitar sound on RATM and on Audioslave. Think Rubin did audioslave but not definite.

[BrettB]

Yeps, he did Audioslave and the last Renegades album of RATM (I'm a HUGHE fan of RATM!)

The first album of Ratm was by gggarth, the following 2 by Brendan O'Brien. Mixing was mostly Andy Wallace.

For the riff rock like rage a good basstone really adds to the power. Much ppl focus to get their guitas right, but don't forget the power of a good mixed bass line.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Enginering is the part of tracking, not mixing. I thought the mixing was up to the producer. Am i wrong?
What does the producer (rick rubin) actually do then if i am wrong?

In the major label world it is actually uncommon that the producer mixes the record. If its a rock record it is usually mixed by Tom Lord Alge, Chris Lord Alge, Andy Wallace or Jack Josheph Puig. I myself make about half my living mixing records that other producers or engineers have recorded.

I do not know Rick Rubin personally, but my freinds have worked with him and I have read interviews etc. He is very upfront about that fact that he does not engineer or mix records and actually goes so far to say that he does not think a background in engineering makes some one suitable to be a producer (or something to that effect).

Rick Rubin is notorious for not really being in the studio very much when records are made. part of my thinks thats really shitty, but for what ever reason his approach has yeilded some of the best records ever made, so who am I to bitch.

[ecktronic]

So what does Rubin actually do then? Does he decide what songs go on the album and does he come up with ideas for overdub effects etc.??

[BrettB]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

So what does Rubin actually do then? Does he decide what songs go on the album and does he come up with ideas for overdub effects etc.??

a good producer tries to put all ideas in perspective, dares to take decisions when he has to and has a clear vision in his mind where the album he is recording is going to.

It depends from genre to genre, from project to project, but the Producer has got to be somebody who boost creativity and is someone who has the aura of wisdom, someone on who you can rely on when youu see no light at the end of the creative tunnel.

aA producer has got to get the best performance out of the band/artist.

[futurestar]

A lot of big guitar sounds these days are also achieved using splitters to run two, or three amps at the same time, then double or triple tracked, and blended later in the mix. I had a chance to meet Mike Fraser (Aerosmith/AC/DC) yesterday at the Warehouse (Brian Adam's studio), and his latest project is a band from NYC in the vein of Slipnot etc. He said they are running about 100 tracks on most songs! Probably 20 or so of those are guitars ... thank GOD for automated Neve consoles!!

[BootCut]

I saw an interview with the singer from the International Noise Conspiray, it's a Swedish band on Rick Rubins label. He said that Rick don't know much about musical theory. The band just played for him and Rick said when it sounded good, he had to point on the guitar where he wanted the guitar player to play, because he don't know any chords or notes.
Then they break down the song in different parts and analyze every little part, every part has to be there for a reason. Then they put the song back together just to break it down again, and so it goes on til it's perfect.
Rick also has a oxygen tent the singer had to rest in, when Rick thought the singer sounded a little weak. Strange guy that Rick.

I know Rammstein records all their guitars with Mesa amps.

[BrettB]

I once read an article with the Belgian dance band Pragha Kahn, who were going to record something with Rick. they didn't hear from a long time, so they thought he had forgotten the project, while suddenly, when they were on tour in Azia, they got a phone in a restaurant: Rick Rubin. He thought it was the right time to call an e just tracked them down.

[raab]

I really dislike the "nu-metal" guitar tones. They are SO mushy, and have so little definition to the notes. They are SO blurry!!!

One trick I'm aware of to get a great heavy guitar tone is to track 3-4 guitars in unison with the distortion backed off. The number of tracks take care of the beef, while the conservative use of distortion makes the guitar part very clear. This is a technique used by bands like RATM and OPETH. I think alot of the younger bands think that what makes a good live tone (mesa's at max distortion) makes a great sutdio tone.

This is one reason why Sabbath, AC/DC, and Zeppelin have guitar tones more monstrous than what is the status quo today. They multitracked guitars with moderate crunch and great clarity.

[11miles]

I dont think nu-metal bands are craving for the clarity in their riffs. Its jsut plain gain to the max. The style of playing is also much different than what Jimmy played.

SO i wouldn't match the style or sound of the guitars now and then.
I like the nu-metal rings but still have place in me for the Immigrant song

It would be funny to track down the band/producer/engineer who first came up with the idea of recording multiple guitar tracks unison and achieving hte monster guitar sound.

Since we all agree that the rock/metal greats used totally different techniques to record we should probably look at the 80/s Era.

The likes of i dont know, SIsters of Mercy....

[TexRoadkill]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but a good way to get a thick modern distortion sound is to put compression on the guitar before it hits the amp. The end result is a very smooth, thick sound. You can even make it pump a little with the beat if you want.

[nigelcrowe]

Here's the kind of response you were probably actually looking for.

First off, compression is a very good thing. It gives guitars punch and clarity. It tightens up the low mid frequencies as they are usually the most prone to fluctuating. For punchy, "Rick Rubin" style guitars (do you mean Weezer, Slipknot?), you're going to want to set you're compressors to a pretty slow attack and a relatively fast release. This preserves the initial attack of the guitars but evens out the dynamics of the following signal. I can give you exact numbers and ratios if you want, but try experimenting first. In addition, use multiple compressors if possible as all the guitar tones mentioned here are HEAVILY compressed.
Now for EQ. This is the really difficult part. While compression is just a methodic standard, eq can vary quite a bit. Here are some guidelines though.
Cut off everything below around 95Hz. This low end is not "guitar" low end. This is where the bass and kick drum will be sitting in the mix so by cutting it from the guitar, ur making room for those instruments to be heard. The bulk of a guitars low end is around 120Hz. You can try boosting and cutting here accordingly. If the guitar sounds "cheap" or too "pawn shoppy", give it a gentle dip-down around the 500Hz. If the guitars do not have enough bite, you can boost em around the 5-6KHz range ever so slightly. Adjust the Q control according to preference. Last but not least. Cut everything above around the 12KHz range as this space should be reserved for the cymbals in the mix.
These eq tips are not meant to alter the sound of the guitar (because as acknowledged by yourself, you should be tracking a good sound anyways) but to make room for the other instruments in the mix. By limiting the frequencies that the guitar takes up, you are actually freeing it to be more forward and present in the mix as it is not arguing and competing with other instruments for sonic space. By compressing it, you can make the guitars louder PREDICTABLY. Hope this was helpful.

[The Black Circl]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Any folk out there got pro experience with mixing distorted guitars?I have two guitars and used a 57 and a 58 on different speakers for tracking. Used a marshall dsl100 tube amp with 1960 4x12 cab. The two guitar tones are quite different but both play major parts in the mix. Both rythym alot of the time.
I was wondering if anyone had any tips atall on this matter of mixing.
I amnt sure whether to use a little compression or not yet. I have heard that if you dont hear a visible difference from using an effect, then dont use it, but when listening to commercial CDs like System of a down they must use some compression to give more body to them. The guitar tracks have good levels. By this i mean that when the guitars are heavy they are at a pretty consistent levels. Compression is not needed to bring down some parts of the waves and because of this i am confused as to whether i should even use compression.
I know that i should just listen and hear what is best, but i aint a pro, so any info from experience would be of a great help to me.

Heres a pretty safe bet with a two guitar part song:

0) Record both guitar parts on the the same amp and settings, and use the sam guitar
1) track the guitar 1 and then dub it
2) track guitar 2 and then dub it
3) pan one track of guitar 1 hard left and 1 track of guitar 2 hard right and leave a track of 1 and 2 in the middle
4)balance the volume between the 4 tracks so that nothing is dominate and it just has a good mix
5) cut 5000k all the way around (this is the one that hurts at loud volumes the most - to me at least)
6) cut around 6oohz the tracks for one guitar part
7) cut around 400hz the tracks for the other guitar part
8) cut somewhere around 200-250 all the way around to make room for a good bass sound
9) Open two more tracks and over dub the chorus pan these hard left and right - you can fill out and balance between the panning on the core tracks - usually sounds pretty good on the chorus (I mean if guitar one is panned left on the core track, then pan it right on the chorus dubs.)
10) Dub in a cool effect on the bridge
11) Over dub any lead parts with a thick bassy sounding guitar and mix it in good (cut the highs so that its not missed when the freqs disappear.)

I would use your availibility of gear combinations on the over dubing. It sounds like theres alot of oppertunity for cool sounds, but I definately would not try to over complicate it. Good with all the same stuff on the 1st 4 tracks.

please note that all the cuts that I suggested are to take place in post production

[Sloan]

Tight tracks, less gain, layers, lowcuts. The magic happens in the midrange. Only mix guitars with everything else, they're probably gonna sound not so good solo'd.

[bkkornaker]

i dont know how to mix "Rubin style".....but when i mix my distorted guitars....

i do add compression. Most of the time if im close micing my amp, it will always pick up a very dark, bassy sound (proximity effect), ............and by adding some compression...it will shave of some of the very low-low bassy stuff going on. BUT i only add VERY LITTLE compression (4:1) ratio and set the threshold so reducing only about 1-1.5 db of your guitar (and then again, that may be too much still). The end result is very inaudible....but you should notice the low end mudd will be slightly gone now....

then ill add some EQ, and boost about 8k quite a bit.....unitll the guitar starts to "shine/polish" and is bright enough in relevance with the other instruments.

if it lacks "bite/cut/edge", ill slowy add in some 2.5k

Always double track the guitar parts an layer them, 2 tracks per side of the stereo filed is a must. EQ the double track so instead of boosting the 2.5k, boost 4k (or something different) ......to make that double sound different....