Monitors for Mixing/Mastering

[MooreDogger]

I've been looking at different monitors to purchase for my project studio and I'm still having a tough time deciding. My question to you guys is this: Is it possible to both mix and master on the same monitors and get good results? I realize that both applications demand different types of speakers but seeing these new DSP monitors with speaker emulation (hi-fi, AM stereo, etc) got me thinking about applying EQ to a speaker with a flat response to do the mastering and leaving the EQ flat for mixing. Is it possible to get good results doing this and if it is do you have any EQ ideas for the mastering side of things?

[Blue Bear Sound]

No - that's not the way to approach it at all........

[Ronan]

i am just seconding Blue Bears post.

Speaker emulation: The best sham since mic modeler.

[MooreDogger]

Thanks for setting me straight . I wasn't ever seriously looking at the DSP monitors but they got me thinking about regular ones and EQ.

Could either of you two elaborate on why its not the way to go?

[xstatic]

Personally, I would never EQ a set of monitors. EQ's tend to add a lot of phasing artifacts, can distort, and in general are just a bad idea in my opinion. What I would do is buy a nice set of monitors, and then treat your room to tighten up the sound a bit. Then spend some time learning how your monitors translate and how the react with your room.

I personally am on my second pair of Dynaudio monitors. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED them both. I have tried KRK K-Roks, Tannoy reveals, Alesis monitor ones, Event 20/20's and Mackie HR824's. In my opinion, both the Dynaudio BM6 and my new BM15's absolutely kill all the others. The difference wasn't even subtle. It was night and day. Not to mention that I can listen to them for 12+ hour sessions without my ears feeling fatigued.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by xstatic

In my opinion, both the Dynaudio BM6 and my new BM15's absolutely kill all the others. The difference wasn't even subtle. It was night and day. Not to mention that I can listen to them for 12+ hour sessions without my ears feeling fatigued.

Test out a pair of Adams, then we'll talk!

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I personally am on my second pair of Dynaudio monitors. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED them both. I have tried KRK K-Roks, Tannoy reveals, Alesis monitor ones, Event 20/20's and Mackie HR824's. In my opinion, both the Dynaudio BM6 and my new BM15's absolutely kill all the others. The difference wasn't even subtle. It was night and day. Not to mention that I can listen to them for 12+ hour sessions without my ears feeling fatigued.

And you actually managed to not listen to a single good monitor.

[xstatic]

Actually, I have listened to plenty of "good monitors" as well. The difference is what I could afford. I didn't think it would help the post to mention Genelec, Truth, ADAM, Westlake, Quested etc.... There are many monitors from most of those manufacturers that I really like. However, none of their offerings in that same price range seemed to hold up to the Dynaudio's. I do believe though that once I make the jump to the next price bracket that the viable and competitive options greatly increase. The difference to me is that my Dynaudio BM15's and something like a Hafler power amp cost about the same as a pair of powered Mackie HR824's ( which I really don't care for but MANY people seem to like). In my opinion, the Dynaudio/Hafler combo is much nicer than the Mackie's.

As far as ADAM goes, I do like the ADAM monitors. Adam doesn't offer anything though that even comes close to what i make my Dynaudio's do in the same price range. Bootm line, I could not afford Adam's that met my needs. Also, there are very mixed feelings concerning the ADAM monitors. Many people really love them, but there is a growing number of people who don't. I really can't find anyone so far who doesn't like the Dynaudio's though. Its also VERY hard to find used ones. That's usually a good sign. Me, personally, I like the ADAM's I have heard, and I don't really care what other people don't like them until I hear a reason that would make them not appropriate for me.

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Actually, I have listened to plenty of "good monitors" as well. The difference is what I could afford. I didn't think it would help the post to mention Genelec, Truth, ADAM, Westlake, Quested etc.... There are many monitors from most of those manufacturers that I really like. However, none of their offerings in that same price range seemed to hold up to the Dynaudio's. ...

A Dynaudio fan here as well. BM15s with BX30 subs.

I'll probably use these until I can afford Duntechs.

[xstatic]

I fyou ever want to sell one of those BX30 subs, lemme know I just can't afford $1800 for a sub right now

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

And you actually managed to not listen to a single good monitor.

The HR824 isn't a good monitor? i'm not under any illusions, I know there's much better out there (if you have the money) but I think for a home or project studio they're excellent monitors.

Oh well just goes to show, doesn't matter what bit of kit you use for what purpose, someone will tell you it's no good.

[usernamebob]

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/sho...d.php?t=123752

I'm ordering a pair of those tommorow.. so that would probably show my opinion on them

[Han]

Originally Posted by Kevin DeSchwazi

The HR824 isn't a good monitor? i'm not under any illusions, I know there's much better out there (if you have the money) but I think for a home or project studio they're excellent monitors.

Oh well just goes to show, doesn't matter what bit of kit you use for what purpose, someone will tell you it's no good.

Kevin

I have a pair of IMF Compact 2 monitors next to my NS10's that swallows them. Last week another studio owner was at my place and after listening to these small monitors he said: got to get these babies! I payed €50 for the pair.

On the ceiling there's a pair of IMF ALS40II's hanging, very detialed and rather flat freq response. I've payed €150 for them.

For mastering we use the IMF Compact Monitor 2 and the big RSPM's that has a freq response from 17hz to 40khz in a pretty flat line from 30hz to 20khz.

I've payed €70 for the CM 2's and €300 for the RSPM's

Tuesday I'm going to collect my 5th pair of IMF's, the Super Compact's in very good condition for €100.

Most drivers in IMF monitors are KEF.

There's a studio in the Netherlands that's famous all over the world in jazz recording (Studio 44 of Max Bolleman). He uses KEF monitoring.

So you don't need an awful lot of money for great monitoring, for about $100 you'll have a pair of monitors that will outperform all the Mackie, Alesis, Behringer or whatever cheap monitoring.

FYI: http://www.imf-electronics.com/

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by Han

Kevin

I have a pair of IMF Compact 2 monitors next to my NS10's that swallows them. Last week another studio owner was at my place and after listening to these small monitors he said: got to get these babies! I payed €50 for the pair.

On the ceiling there's a pair of IMF ALS40II's hanging, very detialed and rather flat freq response. I've payed €150 for them.

For mastering we use the IMF Compact Monitor 2 and the big RSPM's that has a freq response from 17hz to 40khz in a pretty flat line from 30hz to 20khz.

I've payed €70 for the CM 2's and €300 for the RSPM's

Tuesday I'm going to collect my 5th pair of IMF's, the Super Compact's in very good condition for €100.

Most drivers in IMF monitors are KEF.

There's a studio in the Netherlands that's famous all over the world in jazz recording (Studio 44 of Max Bolleman). He uses KEF monitoring.

So you don't need an awful lot of money for great monitoring, for about $100 you'll have a pair of monitors that will outperform all the Mackie, Alesis, Behringer or whatever cheap monitoring.

FYI: http://www.imf-electronics.com/

Thank you for that Han, that's very encouraging. I'll be keeping my eyes open for some IMFs.

[Han]

Kevin, there must be lots of IMF monitors in the UK, for it's a Brits factory that was making hi end speakers from the mid seventies to the late eighties.

Funny thing is when I make a mix that sounds really good, it sounds also great on the NS10's. Kind of the other way around.

I have the pair of Super Compacts now, gonna try them tomorrow.

[xstatic]

I never meant to imply that the Mackie monitors were bad and/or useless. When they first came out the really filled a nice niche. Since then however, other companys have released monitors in that same price range that in my opinion blow the Mackie's away. They were a real trend for a while, but now there are LOTS of them for sale. That should be a sign.

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by xstatic

I never meant to imply that the Mackie monitors were bad and/or useless. When they first came out the really filled a nice niche. Since then however, other companys have released monitors in that same price range that in my opinion blow the Mackie's away. They were a real trend for a while, but now there are LOTS of them for sale. That should be a sign.

No, Cloneboy Studio remarked that all of the monitors you mentioned were not good. An observation which he's perfectly entitled to make and one which I respect because having read some of his posts he seems like a very knowledgable chap.

I just despair sometimes because it doesn't matter what you use someone will knock it. I could spend £3000 on a microphone and someone would say "yeah but you need to spend £3500 to get REAL quality." It's all relative, there's equipment out there that I'd sell my granny for but there are pros on here that would probably turn their noses up at that same piece of equipment because it's not up to scratch for them. I just think we all need to remember each others limits sometimes. I don't post on here and take it for granted that everyone here is a bumbling newbie with a tiny budget, I respect (and am extremely grateful) that there are experienced professionals here who do this for a living. So it's no wonder they need top notch stuff as their reputation and earning potential depends on the end product right? But equally there are a lot of people here who do other things for a living and record audio for a hobby and we (admittedly due to lack of skill and knowledge as well as lack of funds) have to settle for lesser quality.

Apologies that turned into a bit of a rant, here's a joke to lighten the mood.

"How many REs does it take to change a light bulb?

10

One to change it and the other nine to stand around telling him how they would've done it differently and with a more suitable set of step ladders"

I'm just gonna hold out for a pair of those IMFs Han recommended.

[Han]

>I'm just gonna hold out for a pair of those IMFs Han recommended.<

You do that Kevin, it can only set you back for a couple of hundreds maximum.

I've been working with the Super Compacts and the sound is like the bigger ALS40's, only less low beneath 50hz, but very nice speakers.

For some reason though I like two way systems better than three way systems, it always seem to have a nicer stereo image.

The Compact 2's are two way, will cost you not more than €50, are very detailed sounding speakers with a very nice low end. Not the boom from a vented speaker, but a balanced and very deep bass.

Only the T27 tweeter is a little too loud, but a little EQ or a 30 ohm resistor will solve that tiny problem.

The ALS40II I have are from the early 80s. They have two woofers, the one goes to 150hz, the other to 350hz, the small mid speaker takes over from there and the tweeter takes over from the mid. The X-overs are very complicated.

Bruce mentioned the ADAM monitors, they will set you back for some $4000 (the S3A) and guess where these speakers are equipped with? Two woofers, one to 150 hz, the other to 350 hz and a ribbon driver.

Some engineers are raving about the S3A's and I've heard them at AES and liked the sound, but some engineers like Bob Katz for example, are not very enthousiastic: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...88bc#msg_27026

Peace, Han

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Bob Katz, wow, I have one of his books.

Thanks again for the info Han.

[Han]

Kevin, I have a couple of links for ya where you can see the successor of the IMF line.

I spoke to some guy who has bought these giants for a couple of hundred bucks.


http://digilander.libero.it/piani/ca...generale-2.jpg

http://digilander.libero.it/piani/ca..._reference.jpg

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Han

Some engineers are raving about the S3A's and I've heard them at AES and liked the sound, but some engineers like Bob Katz for example, are not very enthousiastic: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...88bc#msg_27026

Bob Katz' comment in that thread was towards the pair he listened to specifically, not a general statement.

Don't forget, opinions on monitors are very subjective and will vary widely amongst engineers -- the bottom line is finding monitors that work FOR YOU.

[Buck62]

Here's my take on this (...and the most cost-effective for a home studio)


There's a listening/learning-curve on any set of monitors you buy. You have to do literally hundreds of mixes (if you are a novice) before you know how to properly compensate each respective instrument and bring together a "good mix." You can do this on any set of monitors in the $300 to $900 range, so it won't cost a fortune.

After getting what you THINK is a "good mix" you should check that mix on a set of what they call "grot boxes." The whole concept of grot boxes (and a good example of a set of them) can be seen right here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar0...2a9822af6d0702

Now, as far as mastering you own stuff goes, that's an entirely different ballgame. Only a VERY experienced engineer with a high-end set of monitors (like the one's discussed in previous posts), better equipment, and BETTER EARS should be doing the mastering in a mastering studio set up for this purpose. I'm not saying you can't do it on your own, I'm saying that it won't sound as good as having a fresh set of ears with a non-biased, fresh perspective and the proper equipment and environment to do the job.

[Recording Chick]

I mix with a pair of Mackie HR824's. The mixes I do on them translate well on other consumer mid fi system which is the listening destination of 99% of all music. What else do you want? Yorkville ysm 1's are also very nice and priced right.

[Han]

What I want is a monitor where I can listen to for eight or more hours without getting fatique and still be able to hear every detail.

A flat frequency response is a must have and they must not cost a fortune.

I think I've found them. I have worked with many studio monitors from Westlake, Genelec, KRK, JBL, Urei, Yamaha to you name it.

The best nearfields (IMHO) so far are the IMF Compact Monitor 2's, everything I mix on these sounds even great on NS10's

And they've cost me only €70

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Han

What I want is a monitor where I can listen to for eight or more hours without getting fatique and still be able to hear every detail.
...
I think I've found them.

Same here -- ADAM S2A's!!