Alternatives to guitar amps for recording

[warble]

Hey all-
Not exactly sure this fits here, but I'll go for it anyway.

I've been working on a project and a guitarist friend and well, we aren't getting along much musically anymore. Although not a guitarist, I can hear what I want in my head and want to work with a good guitarist to hammer it all out. He has a nice Marshall AVT-275 which has "emulated" stereo outputs which were very usuable for recording in my studio. The amp is on it's way out, and the new player I'm recruiting (my Dad) doesn't really have a decent amp. He's got a Fender SuperVerb with the Jensen's in it, but it needs a major overhaul - new tubes, etc. Contstant crackling sound. Besides, that amp won't do any heavier guitar sounds without an effects pedal for distortion, etc.

Now for the question:

Any good recommendations for an amp simulator/emulator for recording? I've done some searching around here, and read about the POD line, the V-amp, and the SansAmp stuff. Judging by what I've come up with, the SansAmp GT2 or Tri-AC would be good (relatively inexpensive) options for getting some decent amp tones. Anyone using SansAmp stuff and have any input? I've also been thinking about VST plugins for using in Cubase (Amplitube, Guitar Rig, etc). but I'm not sure of the quality or that I want to tinker around for weeks to get a good sound. Seems with a minimal tinkering, the SansAmp stuff would provide for a good tone. Easy for me, easy for pops

[manning1]

warble. ive yet to try any simulator that makes me smile.
but maybwe i'm too pernickety. jonhson j stations were being blown out for 100 bucks a while back. not too bad. i was disappointed by the vamp.
just sounded too "digital" like a lot.
fyi - simulanalog.org have a research project on guitar amp software. its free. try the jcm settings sometime. i was a bit surprised. but the source track seems to have an effect on the result.
overall i'm still waiting to find a simulator that makes me chortle with happiness. for me micd amp is still the only way.
someone told me to try a DR Z sometime. but expensive.
lots of hits used to be done with old marshall , orange and hi watt amps.

[warble]

Thanks Manning. Seems like the V-amp sounds a little too sterile for a lot of people. I'll check out that simulanalog Website and see what that's all about.

I'm gonna miss the Marshall amp we were using. I thought I wouldn't be able to get away with NOT miking it - but the emulated outs sounded pretty cool.

Have you ever tried the SansAmp stuff?


Edited: Just dropped into ebay and there are a few Johnson J Stations for pretty decent prices (under $100). Looks to have digital out as well.

[Scottgman]

I just tried Amplitude the other night. A friend has it and was raving about how it was the "best amp modeller he has ever seen." It was kind of cool but I wasn't impressed with the sound. Besides adjusting amps and cabinets (british tube amp with 4x12 or 1x12, for example) and tone setttings, you can also adjust whether it is emulating a dynamic or condensor mic, whether the "mic" is on-axis or off, and whether the "mic" is close mic'd or far away. It didn't sound terrible but-- to my ears-- it still had that "digital" sound that people complain about with the PODs, etc.

I think it would be great for laying down ideas, etc. But for final production, I'm with Manning, a mic'd amp is the only way to go. If you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, Amplitude may be a good option. Not sure if they have a demo version, you might try to find it and check it out.

The same friend also has the Behringer V-amp and it sucks ass in my opinion. If I HAD to choose between the two, I would go with Amplitude.

[DJL]

Originally Posted by warble

Have you ever tried the SansAmp stuff?

It's ok... but real amps are way better IMO.

[Farview]

I used to use a Sansamp PSA-1. I really liked it, but I always mic'ed a cabinet. It seemed a little sterile just plugged in, but that might be just me. It was still very usable.

[maskedman72]

palmer audio pga

http://www.palmerdirect.com/pga04f.htm

do a search on this unit.

[manning1]

warble. i tried a sansamp once. never really made me go wild.
i want something that makes me go wild.
look into crate tube amps sometime. not bad price. impressed me quite a bit.
or go to england to london. in london there are quite a few vintage old amp dealers. i tried a orange amp (always new they were good). very nice with ac few pedals. but pricey.
another idea for "filler guitar backing tracks" BUT NOT LEADS is find an old rockman then fiddle with simulanalog after the fact. for those tracks you want just "there in the back" if you know what i mean.
still cant beat a nice miced rectifier based amp imho.
i like rectified the best. the sort of sound i like is the guitar sounds on china grove.

[tollbooth]

hey warble

i know, just know i'm gonna get flamed on this, but i've been using my POD v2 for a few years now (never upgraded to XT - see later) - and it doesn't bite the big one completely! i actually find it really versatile for getting say 90% of a track down.

i used to use a SansAmp GT2 for a long time, and recorded a few tracks with just a CryBaby running straight into the GT2, and they are still some of my favourite solos.

i would agree with anyone that the POD is pretty near awful for clean guitar sounds, but for clean tracks i tend to record a few pedals (normally a boss compressor followed by chorus) straight into my preamp. any delays and whatnot i tend to add in Digital Performer.

my favour of the POD may be something to do with the way i lay guitars down - i tend to play mostly fairly experimental stuff and so even big distorted guitars go down played twice and then panned 8o'clk/4o'clk. this means i get a lot of the power and dynamics from multi-tracking. there's also some jiggering around with dynamics and EQ once i get the guitars into DP.

i also do a lot with Polar in DP - this is a multilayering programme that allows you to create HUGE guitar orchestra sounds - this means that differences in tone tend to get a little smoothed out anyway.

however i cannot deny that for a lot of session work i do, i tend to use my amp mic'd up. though i do also use the POD. mic'ing may be difficult for you if you live somewhere where volume is an issue, and i don't think you said. it's great for us all to say mic'ing is best, but it just may not be practical for you.

for software, i had a play around with the new Native Instruments Guitar Rig the other day, and it's really pretty good. my only problem with software guitar systems is that i just know i'm going to get frustrated when i find it impossible to take out on the road. Guitar Rig is pretty good though.

the POD Live XT is supposed to be getting good reviews too, though it's only just come out - it's basiclly a POD XT as a floor based unit with integral expression pedal. The XT is a big improvement on the older v2 that i have, but i just can't bring myself to upgrade, especially as i'm incredibly naffed off that the is no option but to buy a whole new damn floorboard when you upgrade as the XT won't accept the old one!!!! this is just crap from Line6 and i bet a lot of folks have not bothered upgrading and i really hope sales of XTs suffered because it was an awful marketing move that they need to learn from.

off my soapbox now and waiting for the backlash!

worth a look at POD and GT2 even if only to decide for yourself.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by manning1

warble. i tried a sansamp once. never really made me go wild.
i want something that makes me go wild.
look into crate tube amps sometime. not bad price. impressed me quite a bit.

You would pick a crate (tube or not) over the sans amp? What kind of sound do you normally go for? It just sounds wierd to me.

[manning1]

farview. ive forgotten the crate model to be honest. it was a few years back now. i KNOW it was a tube amp.
actually ive been blown away once in my life. and this was by a session lead guitar player in a big studio. he brought only a pignose amp to the session with some pedals. a real PRO. great chops. his sound out of the silly pignose with the pedals blew me away. heh - someone said he had great sounding fingers !! might be worth a try for warble. on another occassion i heard a
great player playing pedals through a fender bassman amp. think it was customised. and on yet another occasion i was amazed to find a guitarist playing pedals through of all things one of those amp/spkr combos meant for plugging in say an old rhodes piano or its ilk.
i frankly think a lot is luck finding theright combo.

[Farview]

Pignoses are great for recording and the fender bassman is what jim marshall based the early marshalls around. That all is pretty resonable. That Blue Voodoo (I'm assuming that is what it was) was still way over processed sounding. I was much better sounding than the normal solid state stuff, but still barley useable.

[warble]

Just went searching the net for Pignose amplification...looks like they make some decent amps for good prices. I found a G40V which is all tube, 40 watts, and sells for about $200. Good price seeing as I don't have too much to spend.

[Farview]

The ones that we are talking about are battery operated and are small enough to clip to your belt.

[mikeh]

I have a few small amps (Fender Champ, Marshal Lead 10, Roland 15 Cube) and I also have a PODv2 (for dirty sounds) a Johnson J-Station (for clean sounds) and I just got the V-amp for bass (yeah I know Behringer sucks - but for bass amp sounds this thing is rather decent).

While I agree that mic'ing an amp is best, and a tube amp is better than solid state - I have been forced to use amp simulation alot (recording in the wee hours, etc). I just bought a condo, so more than ever I'll be dependant on simulation.

Maybe it's my loss of hearing (from 35 years of gigging) or maybe I simply am not a guitar "purist" (hell, my main axe is drumkit - and I don't even mind electronic drums) and maybe it's the fact that my "real" amps aren't the cream of the crop - but I simply don't find that amp simulation cheapens the quality of my recording enough to concern myself.

Any amp simulation takes work to tweak out the right sounds - but most of the guitar players I know (most of which are very seasoned pro's with many, many years of experiance) can rarely tell if my recordings are an amp or a simulation. The Pod & the J-Station can sound very real (mileage may vary).

Warble, trust your ears (and certainly let Dad trust his) but don't completely discount the use of simulation. Hopefully, you'll find a real amp that blows you away,

[manning1]

actually farview i (its hazy - been awhile). the one i saw was not belt mounted on trousers. they work as well. but it was larger. but not 200 bucks. i think around 120 bucks if i remember. just over a foot wide and tall if i remember.
i saw one similar recently. it was brown if i remember with circular spkr cutout. and controls at the bottom.
no - the crate wasnt a blue voodoo. i know the one you mean. wasnt that one. i tried the voodoo. didnt like it. frankly i think an interesting combo might be a jstation into a pignose. i'm thinking of this for myself.

[Ronan]

Almost every direct guitar sound I have heard could be acurately described as vile. Really awful. perhaps I am just too damn dramatic, but hearing people play guitar with a Pod or ampliture or anything of the like makes me depressed. I just dont understand how a guitarist can walk into guitar center and play through a Pod and not punch the sales guy for suggesting it. Amp emulation is the emporers new clothes of recording.

the big problem with all the amp emulated guitar business is not that they make the guitar sound awful, but they make everything else in a track sound worse as well. Try it in a mix. Get a mix you think sound Ok, now mute the Pod tracks and listen how your drums come to life, you vocals are more clear, they is more detail in your acoustic guitars.... i make about half my living mixing records that other producers have recorded and for the most part i have stopped taking jobs where the guitars were done direct because I know I will not be proud of the end result.

If you must record direct, you can get some usable sounds out of a sansAmp and actually the old Mesa Boogie studio tube pre amps can sound pretty cool and cost about $250 on the used market.

[manning1]

ronan. what do you think of this ?
ive had more than a few people tell me carvin make a pretty decent tube
amp. whats your take ? i dont know much about them.
peace.

[Lambo]

A friend of mine has the GT2 plugged into a Behringer Ultra G direct box/cabinet simulator recording direct and for $200 the sound is very, very good. If you check out the various rigs the pros use (guitargeek.com) to achieve their tone you realize how duanting, subjective the question of 'in search of good tone' can be. The advice you'll get from these guys on this board who in my opinion are the 'real deal' is 1) go plug into the various amps, effects etc. and buy what sounds good to you and that which you can afford 2) realize that gear will never supercede techique. Good tone is a function of both good technique and good gear.
No one will ever say their techique is as good as it can be nor do they have all of the gear they invision having so by default the search continues.
Good luck!
BTW, I think jamming with your dad is very cool!

[Clive Hugh]

Having just purchases a pod :2 I am disappointed in the clean sound, as that is what I normally play but with a bit of tweaking some of the "dirty sounds" are fairly liveable

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by manning1

ronan. what do you think of this ?
ive had more than a few people tell me carvin make a pretty decent tube
amp. whats your take ? i dont know much about them.
peace.

I have not played a Carvin in a while but I remember them being "OK". I am sure its head and shoulders above a Pod.

I was recording through a 1935 tube radio today.

[warble]

Thanks to all for the responses. Did take pops out this weekend. Played through a Yamaha MagicStomp box...not a bad little box and has some useable sounds. I'm kind of a Yamaha junkie, so I had to have him try it out.
Not all the sounds are killer, but there are some nice presets on it. Think I'm going to take the old Fender amp in for new tubes soon too. It's always been a nice amp, and my Dad's had it for over 40 years and it still fires up and actually works - even after some heavy gigging back in the day. He's having his 60th birthday next week, so getting the old Fender fixes would be a cool thing to do. He's still got great chops, and that might inspire some more playing if he actually had an amp that worked. Some new tubes and a general checkup and she'll be back for another round or two.

[Clive Hugh]

" He's having his 60th birthday next week, so getting the old Fender fixes would be a cool thing to do. He's still got great chops,"

From another old bugger who's having his 60th. birthday next week too, don't confuse age with decent chops, it's lack of playing that will slow you down, or disease, but not turning 60.

[warble]

Hey Clive: certainly didn't mean that age was a problem I think my Dad will attest to what you saying. He hadn't played for like 10 years and has been working to fire up that "spark" again. I told him to hold onto the music - I know for myself, it keeps me moving forward. I play keys and sing, and can't imagine not doing it. Somehow he let it slip a bit, and I've been encouraging him to get it back. I can tell in the past couple times we've played together in the past few months, that the energy is still in there.

[5 String]

The Carvin Quad-X I used for a while (had to give it back eventually) was brilliant.
The clear channels added a 'sparkle' superior to any enhancer I've used.
The Crunch and Sustain Channels sounded great and had plenty of adjustment.
The individual FX loops were a good idea as were the MIDI in and out.
MIDI in gave you the option of channel changing from a sequencer and MIDI out gave you the option to change FX patches as you changed channels.

The sounds would give any Fender, Mesa or Soldano a run for their money.


On another tack find it funny to hear the old 'too digital' argument being rolled out.
What's NOT on digital these days?
Are these guys recording direct to vinyl or reel-to-reel?