Calling all A Designs MP-2 owners!

[justharold]

Hey...

I am wondering about the mic inputs on the A Designs MP-2. It is my understanding that the inputs are "wide open". Does anyone experience any clipping or such with hotter mics? I am especially concerned about it recording vocals. If so, do any of you use any sort of pad (attenuator) in line? And (if so) which one?

I know that I could have the vocalist back off the mic some, however, I hate to use that as my only remedy...

[Teacher]

What makes the MP2 so great is the way it Handles overs, the tubes get driven and sound so nice...but you can drive it to hard then the sound goes to shit.

but I guess your talkin about clipping the converter so....

I'd recommend getting the A-design Atty passive attenuattor I have one works great doesn't efx the sound one bit. ~$100. I don't know why they don't sell it as a package deal.

[justharold]

Thanks for the reply, Teach...

I have heard that it is possible to overdrive the input on the pre with hotter mics (like my TLM103). I am especially concerned about this with vocals.

Or, don't you think that will be a problem...

[Teacher]

you don't have to worry about over driving the input IMO, it has an input attenuator anyway. so no problem

[Dot]

A lot of mic pres use that design. The attenuator is the level control knob on the front panel. You're not going to even come close to overdriving an MP-2 on vocals if you're using an appropriate level on the input.

[justharold]

OK, wait a minute...

I'm not sure I'm following you guys here.

Teach, you say that the MP2 has an input attenuator? Where? It is my understanding that the Level knob is an output adjustment. The input is wide open (that is, if I'm understanding this correctly).

Dot, what do you mean by "if you're using an appropriate level on the input" since there is nowhere to make that adjustment?

Here's what I gathered from talking with a fellow at A Designs. He told me to watch the meters. It is OK is they occasionally peak, but if I am forever PEGGED then I need to back off. He said, sometimes the only way to do it with a big singer and a loud mic is to have the singer move away from the mic. I them asked him about an inline pad, he said that might not be a bad idea.

He also mentioned to me something that I had heard here before that was rather troubling. He asked if my recording was done in one romm or in seperate rooms. He then told to keep from running the pre under loud conditions. That is, not to run it with speakers blaring (etc.) in the room. I am in a seperate room...usually. However, there are occasions when I have to put a vocalist in the room with me...

[justharold]

Oh, oh...

I may be wrong in my interpretation of things it seems. According to the manual, the level knob is described as such:

"Level/Volume Control - Level control knobs are just that. They will control the level/volume/pad of the incoming signals."

Oops...it looks like I misunderstood the guy at A Designs.

Hmmm...

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by justharold

Oh, oh...

I may be wrong in my interpretation of things it seems. According to the manual, the level knob is described as such:

"Level/Volume Control - Level control knobs are just that. They will control the level/volume/pad of the incoming signals."

Oops...it looks like I misunderstood the guy at A Designs.

Hmmm...

yup, the Output gain of the Adesign MP2 is fixed @ 46db or if its the MP2r its 60 db. You can't control the output unless you put a line attenuator after the outs on the mp2. I have a MP2r which has more gain then the regular mp2 and never had a problem with the input of the mp-2

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Teacher

yup, the Output gain of the Adesign MP2 is fixed @ 46db or if its the MP2r its 60 db. You can't control the output unless you put a line attenuator after the outs on the mp2.

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly or not . . . but that sounds like a major pain in the ass. I always thought that one of the main purposes of using a good tube mic pre is the ability to manipulate the input and output volume controls. Without that, what's the point?

A lot of the guys I like on these boards all seem to be A-Designs cheerleaders, but nothing I've seen or heard out of them seems to reinforce this enthusiasm to me. It just smells suspiciously like a product that's cut far too many corners for the sake of affordability. I like the concept (of cutting corners), but I'm not sure that the type of corners that particular brand cuts are the right ones. In the end, a product still has to be useful in order for it to be of value.

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly or not . . . but that sounds like a major pain in the ass. I always thought that one of the main purposes of using a good tube mic pre is the ability to manipulate the input and output volume controls. Without that, what's the point?

A lot of the guys I like on these boards all seem to be A-Designs cheerleaders, but nothing I've seen or heard out of them seems to reinforce this enthusiasm to me. It just smells suspiciously like a product that's cut far too many corners for the sake of affordability. I like the concept (of cutting corners), but I'm not sure that the type of corners that particular brand cuts are the right ones. In the end, a product still has to be useful in order for it to be of value.

if you buy the A-design Attenuator for 100 bucks your gold....thats what I did...so you can drive the tube and get some tubey goodness...though this design is very clean and isn't really 'colorfull' i use the tubes more so as a natural tracking compressor works great IMO

[Dot]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly or not . . . but that sounds like a major pain in the ass. I always thought that one of the main purposes of using a good tube mic pre is the ability to manipulate the input and output volume controls. Without that, what's the point?

A lot of the guys I like on these boards all seem to be A-Designs cheerleaders, but nothing I've seen or heard out of them seems to reinforce this enthusiasm to me. It just smells suspiciously like a product that's cut far too many corners for the sake of affordability. I like the concept (of cutting corners), but I'm not sure that the type of corners that particular brand cuts are the right ones. In the end, a product still has to be useful in order for it to be of value.

Chessrock, I think you have some idea that high end means more buttons, knobs, lights and dodads - when actually it's often the opposite. It's not considered "cutting corners" when a designer chooses to to take a minimalist approach by using less components and connections for optimum performance and signal integrity.

Here's one of the highest end tube mic pres you can buy. I have one. Have a look.
http://www.mil-media.com/images/prod.../large/m2b.jpg

And have a close look at some other high-end mic pre designs...

http://www.apiaudio.com/ph1_3124_m.jpg

http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1PersonalDetails.html

http://www.massenburg.com/cgi-bin/ml...ml?id=tuF4o7kj

Do you see any output level control knobs?

[chessrock]

Dot, you make some good points. But frankly, I don't know that you're the guy to be objective about this stuff . . . especially when you consider how the guys at A-Designs support your forum with product giveaways and banner ad space.

If I were in your shoes, it would most certainly affect my judgement, whether I intended it to or not.

I simply stated my opinion on the matter, and I don't particularly care if other designs do the same thing or not. Particularly stuff like the John Hardy that has no benefit to derive out of it anyway. If you're billing your product with a "straight wire w/ gain" philosophy, then I think the minimalistic design theory is much more relevent.

[Dot]

Why can't I be objective? Hell, nobody had heard of A Designs before I started raving about them. Ask Peter Montessi - he'll tell you himself.

Chessrock, anyone who is advertsing on my forums are there because their company offers excellent products and I approached them. The giveaways are supplied to me in exchange for banner ads. I'm the one who gives the gear away. Not the companies. I'm the one who pays for the gear.

I wrote this review of the A Designs MP-1 long before there were any ads up at Studio Forums.
http://www.digitalprosound.com/2003/...esigns_mp1.htm

Don't try to use some tactic to discredit my opinion just because you don't know what you're talking about when getting into the subject of high-end mic pres.

I don't have any allegiances to any audio manufacturer. We call it like we see 'em. We use more mic pres than anyone here. And because the pres are sent to us by the manufacturers, I'm not in the position of having to "justify" a purchase. In the cases that I'm blown away with a product, I might buy it. Everyone in all the sessions with the A Designs MP pre - stacked up against a lot of other excellent pres - has been blown away. I bought an MP-2.

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by Dot

Why can't I be objective? Hell, nobody had heard of A Designs before I started raving about them. Ask Peter Montessi - he'll tell you himself.

No offense I think Dylan aka e-cue had a lil more effect in that department then you. At least he's the one that put me on to it

[Dot]

Originally Posted by Teacher

No offense I think Dylan aka e-cue had a lil more effect in that department then you. At least he's the one that put me on to it

That might be true in your case, Teacher. e-cue's been an early user and supporter of A Designs, and has certainly spread the word. Dylan and I both beta test gear for A Designs.

Anyone who has heard of A Designs through a lot of the forums and sites - including Digital Pro Sound, The Listening Sessions, Studio Forums, VSPlanet, Harmony Central, Mojo Pie, Front End Audio - has heard about them through me first. And all that has gone towards helping to take A Designs from a little-known company to a well-known company. Like I said - ask the owner of A Designs if you don't believe me.

I don't need to compare dick sizes here. I have no reason to not be objective about what gear I recommend. And what I have to offer is that I actually use all the gear I post about and recommend. What a concept!

Use the info I write or not. It's OK with me.

[chessrock]

Dot, I like what you do for the recording community via the web, and I respect your judgement on a lot of things.

But I'm just calling it like I see it. Now, if I had made a similar comment about a different manufacturer that you had no affiliation with or ties to in any way whatsoever . . . I don't think you would have called me out on my comment. You probably wouldn't have concerned yourself with it in the least. But I have noticed that you tend to speak up rather quickly in defense of certain companies, and I think there are very natural and understandable reasons for that.

Your reply to me was very much motivated by the fact that you've got friends at A-Designs. And I think that's totally cool. But I still happen to believe that we shouldn't let our friendships affect what we say on a board like this where the free flow of unbiased information and opinion is pivotal.

I formed an opinion about certain features on a manufacturer's product that I felt was a valid one, and it was specifically concerning tube mic pres. You came back with something about John Hardy and Millenia. WTF ? ? My point was that I thought a tube mic pre should have an input and output gain control (in order for me, personally, to consider it useful).

C'mon, Dot. If you're going to be biased, at least make a relevent counter-argument. I thought you were supposed to be the web's grand poo-bah on recording gear.

[Dot]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Your reply to me was very much motivated by the fact that you've got friends at A-Designs.

Nope. It really wasn't. I'll let people defend themselves. I'll defend and recommend products that I think are good. And also products that I think are right for the right person.

And I think that's totally cool. But I still happen to believe that we shouldn't let our friendships affect what we say on a board like this where the free flow of unbiased information and opinion is pivotal.

I totally agree!! And you're making the incorrect assumption that I recommend or defend gear based on friendships. And, anyway, in most cases the friendships I have with certain manufacturers came out of my being so impressed with their products. I also have a friend who works at a major manufacturer who sent me an eval unit a few months ago. It went back today. I told him I wasn't impressed enough with the product to review it. I thought it had a lot of design flaws - and it won't be something I'll be recommending.

I formed an opinion about certain features on a manufacturer's product that I felt was a valid one, and it was specifically concerning tube mic pres. You came back with something about John Hardy and Millenia. WTF ? ? My point was that I thought a tube mic pre should have an input and output gain control.

Your comment was that A Designs was somehow cutting corners. And you're someone who's never even used their products. I posted a link to the Millennia M2b TUBE mic pre to give you an example of a super high-end tube pre that also uses the same design philosophy. I just threw a few more products in there to further the point that not including output level does not mean cutting corners.

C'mon, Dot. If you're going to be biased, at least make a relevent counter-argument.

Here's another counter-aurgument for a high-end tube pre manufacturer that does not cut corners. And Fearn is even more correct in calling the input level "attenuation".
http://www.dwfearn.com/vt1hires.jpg

I thought you were supposed to be the web's grand poo-bah on recording gear.

Ha! No, sorry. Just a guy who's been fortunate enough to play around with a lot of cool tools.

[ozraves]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly or not . . . but that sounds like a major pain in the ass. I always thought that one of the main purposes of using a good tube mic pre is the ability to manipulate the input and output volume controls. Without that, what's the point?

A lot of the guys I like on these boards all seem to be A-Designs cheerleaders, but nothing I've seen or heard out of them seems to reinforce this enthusiasm to me. It just smells suspiciously like a product that's cut far too many corners for the sake of affordability. I like the concept (of cutting corners), but I'm not sure that the type of corners that particular brand cuts are the right ones. In the end, a product still has to be useful in order for it to be of value.

I think your post goes to the issue reading about it versus using it in the trenches. The build quality and component choices in the MP-2 are on par with anything in its price range.

[justharold]

Originally Posted by Teacher

if you buy the A-design Attenuator for 100 bucks your gold....thats what I did...so you can drive the tube and get some tubey goodness...though this design is very clean and isn't really 'colorfull' i use the tubes more so as a natural tracking compressor works great IMO

Teacher,

Please forgive me if this is a dumb question, but...you're using the Attenuator after the pre, right?

[justharold]

OK, I just got my MP-2...

I barely had time to get it out of the box and hook it up before I had to do a session. I had to record a female vocalist.

I ran her through my Neumann TLM103 and was quite impressed with what I was hearing. Her first take, however, was a tad hot (not that she was distorting or anything...she just pegged the meter on occassions).

So, I backed her off a bit and had her run through it again.

But...before I did...I noticed that the Output Impedence was set for 10k. I then switched it to 600. The sound quality went from good...to GREAT!

After she was done I asked her if she minded doing the first verse again. Only this time I ran her through my Focusrite VoiceMaster.

Just to compare, you know...

Only...there was no comparison. The A Designs blew the VM away. Totally and completely.

I am a happy man, I tell you.

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by justharold

OK, I just got my MP-2...

I barely had time to get it out of the box and hook it up before I had to do a session. I had to record a female vocalist.

I ran her through my Neumann TLM103 and was quite impressed with what I was hearing. Her first take, however, was a tad hot (not that she was distorting or anything...she just pegged the meter on occassions).

So, I backed her off a bit and had her run through it again.

But...before I did...I noticed that the Output Impedence was set for 10k. I then switched it to 600. The sound quality went from good...to GREAT!

After she was done I asked her if she minded doing the first verse again. Only this time I ran her through my Focusrite VoiceMaster.

Just to compare, you know...

Only...there was no comparison. The A Designs blew the VM away. Totally and completely.

I am a happy man, I tell you.

yea I use the ATTY after the pre...connect it to the outputs of the MP2

Interesting that you like 600 over the 10K maybe its the mic but I always use 10K for vox sounds cleaner to my ears.... YMMV

glad to see your a happy owner, another great thing about A-Designs is the customers service, second to none and Pete is a great guy.

[justharold]

Teacher,

You are right about the 10k setting. That is, for everyone else that I have recorded SINCE that first female. With her, the 600 was INFINITELY better. However, on myself and on another fellow that I recorded today, the 10k was better. Rather substantially, in fact.

You are also right about Pete. I called the company today to ask them about the settings (whether there was a "right or wrong"). I talked to Pete. Man, he talked to me like I was his brother or something (wait...that's not a great comparison...I dislike talking to my brother. )

Anyway...he's a great guy! VERY helpful.

He, too, said most folks prefer 10k but that it was OK to go either way. It is kind of nice to have the extra flexibilty.

[Teacher]

I use 600 when DIing Bass, kick and snare...seems to give a low mid bumb in the freq spectrum

[Rossi]

No, there's definetly no hype about A Designs. In fact they should be better known. The MP1/MP2 is one of the best preamps you can buy at that price point. Great sound. I like the zero-feedback concept a lot. But I never found much use for the 10K setting. The 600 ohms setting sounded much cleaner to me on every source. The only thing I found disappointing was the instrument input, at least on instruments with passive electronics.

[justharold]

You know what I'm finding? That the 10k-600ohm switch seems to work better/worse with different mics.

For instance, on my TLM103 the 600ohm setting seems to sound better. Yet with, say, my AKG C414 B-ULS the 10k is better.

Hmmm...interesting...(to me, anyway)

Rossi, have you tried the instrument input since they reworked it and put it on the front of the unit?