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[thehouseofshawn]

So...thumbing through Musician's Friend I was figuring out a recording signal chain. Here's what I got:

Insutrment>Amp (Or drop if instrument has built-in acoustics)>Mic'ed by Mic>Into Multiple (4) Mic Preamps?>MOTU 24 I/O>PCI Card>Mac G5 Or any computer really with Cubase SX

So...The question mark represents my question of an 8-channel mic preamp (insert your favorite...really...for suggestions) acutally 4 of them for 24 simultaneous inputs running at once (let's say I'm recording a swing big band) and the computer could take it. Would that really be everything necessary minus the software? Minus the Monitors?

Have I been thinking digital recording was more insane than it actually is? Or can 24 simultaneous tracks of analog stuff (mics in this case) be recorded at once? or at different times using each own's mic and track?

Yeah, the only non-generic thing I have listed is the MOTU 24I/O beacuse I highly doubt using a MIDI keyboard, and if I do...it can be added easily with that MOTU soundcard they have...and...most all of my stuff I'd be messing with will be mic'ed the old-fashioned way. Mainly because most of the jazz instruments don't have a self-powered idea (like a huge casio keyboard) anyways...I like the sound of steinburgs. (sp?) So...if that's all it takes...have any suggestions for the generic things I had - minus a heated debate over microphones? That means mostly preamps as it comes down to...

[crankz1]

The addition of a Ghost would be my choice.
Though a couple Drawmer's and Avalon's would be nice to have around and maybe a Focusrite OctoPre or two (for a less expensive option).
It really all depends on what your after .... rack-mountable stuff and/or a nice mixing desk.

[manning1]

shawn. with respect and i dont want to annoy you but this looks like a very expensive path to proceed down.
are you saying you want to record 24 tracks all at once ?
to 24 seperate tracks on the computer ?
recording this many tracks at once is quite a lot to think about in terms of just work for the recording engineer. why not consider reording 8 tracks max at once ? the advantage is more control over workflow, and you can also look for cheaper solutions.
if your thinking of recording 24 tracks at once i would urge you to reconsider.
ive always needed an assistent to help keep track of everything, its very stressfull recording so many tracks at one time.
the setting up particularly and mic psitioning. its not as easy as one might think.
just my 2 cents.

[thehouseofshawn]

I was just trying to understand the signal path something might go in. That's all really...and prefs on mic pres. Now, the Ghost I am confused on...is it something that the signal goes into before going into the computer? Or is it tied into the computer (automated tracks and such)? I've seen things put out my Mackie that allow automation of tracks in a 'real-time' sort of feel...and plugs in through a USB port or something...but all the tracks are sent through the computer first. Is this the same way?

[Scottgman]

Digital recording is similar to analog in many ways.

Think of your computer (hard drive) as the tape recorder. When you are recording to tape, you send the signal from the mixer's pre-amps to the tape machine. In the digital world, you are doing the same thing. The MOTU is analogous to a tape recorder (actually the MOTU is the "interface" for your recorder... but that's getting technical).

Here is your basic signal chain (it's the same for both analog and digital):

Source --> Mic --> Preamp --> Recorder

Obviously this signal chain is for mic'ing a source rather than running direct. The preamp can be a stand alone (e.g., RNP, DMP3, Great River, etc.) or it can be the preamps in a mixing console. The recorder can be either a tape machine or a hard drive. If it's a hard drive, the MOTU (or Delta or any other sound card system) simply allows you to get the source signal into the computer. So instead of sending cables from the mixer into the tape machine, you run cables to the MOTU.

Also, the chain described above is the basic chain needed to record a signal. You can obviously add stuff before the recorder-- like a compressor.

Hope that helps.

[NL5]

And don't forget 24 channels at once mean 24 mics at once......

[Farview]

The ghost would take the place of all those pre amps. Plus it gives you EQ on all the channels.
The other thing it has is the one thing you forgot about, a monitor path. One of the hurdles in computer recording is that you still need a volume control between the sound card and your monitors (or headphones) The mixer will provide that.
You can bring the tracks up and mix through the board. You would use the automation in cubase to ride the volumes. The downside is that if you use the eq on the board, it is not recallable.

[DJL]

The Soundcraft Ghost is nice... keep your eye open for a good used one and you'll save a few more bucks.

[manning1]

shawn. i guess the question i'm curious for your answers is......
what do you want your studio to be in the short and long term.
its a bit like planning a career you know.
do you want a whizz bang elite studio right off the bat (big bucks budget needed) or a modest studio that sounds good to do songs with.
do you want to build to a commercial studio one day for example.
what is your budget for gear ?
all this will have an impact on the type of recommended recording chain.
for example its no good people recommending a nice midas console
or a rack of great pre's if you dont have the budget.
so lets start with budget, then work from there.

[thehouseofshawn]

Originally Posted by Farview

You can bring the tracks up and mix through the board. You would use the automation in cubase to ride the volumes. The downside is that if you use the eq on the board, it is not recallable.

Ideally, what I would look for is something that can be synced with the software. Much like it seems this Ghost is. I tried to access info of it at school but the firewall didn't let me...school is extremely censored...which I think is funny because in the front of the library there are large signs that say 'censorship is blindness' and stuff...but that's way off topic.

With this thing I override EQ'ing I might do, and also the preamps...which would cost quite a bit. Plus, for the jazz setting that I am in (and will pretty much base around) this is plenty of what I would ever need. So...the volume is automated with the software with the Ghost? But not the EQ? That would be fine...that always gets tweaked anyways.

There's a locl guy (well...a 1/2 hour away) that has a computer-based recroding studio that I have a somewhat internship with...for we met through a band and I just told him I wanted to do it. I understand I may never need 24 different mics at once. But in the setting of a Jazz Band...where there are a good 20-30 people in (A Swing band anyways) you really get frowned upon by recording one-by-one. Now...I understand not everyone needs a mic, but the drums would need a few. Each section (High Brass, Low Brass, Woodwinds,etc would need at least two each , each rhythm player (since piano would need a couple and bass, guitar - so that ends out max recording at once with 14 mics at once. Taking 4 for the drummer...I'm not too sure how one records drums). I suppose I don't need a 24 at once...but by the time you want overdubs or something...If I had the money I'd really like to have more stuff....lol. But this is mainly about getting how digital is from analog. Is there an alternative to the MOTU 24 I/O with somewhat similar specs that could be plugged in from something that's somewhat similar to the Ghost only with say...16 tracks that can be automated with the software. Or well...I guess I could just use the Ghost for a 16-at-once-max right?

What other kinds of outboard mixers (to have EQ, preamps, and monitor outs) do the same thing...where they can be integrated into the software too?

This whole thing is referring to trying to learn about what I want to do for a very static recording setup. For right now...I have figured out pretty much what I want. This is the portable setup. Which provides 8 mic pres via the FirePod that I've asked around about into a laptop for a pretty well-maintained small setup. The FirePod has Monitor outputs on it (connects via firewire) so that I can listen to the mix. question: Does the signal get rerouted into the firepod so that I can hear all the effects I might add in the Cubase software? Or is it the dry sound of what I'm recording?
Since I'm going to college in a year...I decided on this so that I have a laptop for school work that I can take around, and still something that I could record myself with (solo stuff) but also often I record with jazz combos which the 8-at-once setup is great for. For...I absolutely love live recordings. Or...well...I should say...live in the even that everyone plays at once. That's really emphasized in jazz...just like distortion is in metal. We play off each other...etc. But I know most of you know; just in case.

What I was trying to get and look for was a static setup that would allow more recording for any band I might be in with a solid hardware/software setup on a tower-based recording system that's obviously more static than the latop.
That led to my questions above.
I want to...when I own the larger version...to be able to take the files recorded on the large version and add to them or edit them on the smaller laptop version. And visavera. Because...knowing me...I'll always be off somewhere. And with the gap between musicians and recording lables and the need to use each other for records gets farther and further apart...I think of myself as a producer of...myself.
For...no one pays as good attention to your business as yourself.

[manning1]

shawn. i still dont see your budget mentioned.
soundcraft ghost, 24 mics, motu. this is all adding up.
do you have a 10k minimum budget ? or is it future dreams ?

[thehouseofshawn]

Future Dreams. I was just trying to understand how things work in all of the diagrams for studios that I see.
Then it got off to that...

[Farview]

The ghost won't be integrated with the software. You would use the software automation to make any changes and just play it through the board with the faders set a unity. You can also use the eq in the program, but the board eq is cooler. You can do this with any board because you are just playing the tracks out of the computer through the board.

[thehouseofshawn]

Then why not just get a normal mixing desk? How do the plugins and effects from the computer come through then?

[OneArmedScissor]

Uh, a Ghost IS a normal mixing desk. It's just a damn fine one.

[manning1]

shawn i wish you no disrespect, and i'm being being sincere.
and all of us are happy to help but there is no point in people posting all this great information on how to set up a great studio if you have no capacity to implement because of no/limited budget. you would do better if you just want to learn about this stuff if you just went to a library and read about what big recording studios use for equipment.
there is tons of info also on the internet.
or buy a recording book. with this background in hand you could then think about budget, then we could make decent suggestions to fit your budget.
otherwise its just a waste of time.
peace.

[Scottgman]

I agree. It sounds like you don't know a whole lot about this stuff. That's not meant as an insult-- none of us are born knowing how to record.

I would suggest getting online and downloading a trial version of some recording software. Use any mic/soundcard combination you have (even if it's a Soundblaster and computer mic). Record a couple tracks of vocals (maybe something like Row, Row, Row Your Boat) and start playing with this stuff. That would be a low-cost (or free if you have a computer mic and Soundblaster) way to get your hands dirty and start learning how to record.

[thehouseofshawn]

This is a resource. Anyways...I said in the first post why I was asking.
And I thought that the board had automation on it. Guess not. I have a few books...even recording studios for guitarist (or something along those lines) and haven't found a detailed home studio setup for the computer. I've looked...maybe not hard...but still haven't found it.

[Farview]

The board has mute automation on it (if you don't get the LE). If you do the editing in the daw, you don't need it. You can also use 4 of the buss faders as midi controls. Again, that would be more of a pain to set up on the board than to just do it in the daw.

[manning1]

shawn heres a minimum cost set up for a home studio that even a seasoned engineer would do great songs on. you will have to spend ten times as much for maybe a few per cent improvement.
amd athlon, 512 ram, two fast 7200 rpm hard drives
delta sound card
yorkville monitors powered by a home hi fi.
shure sm 57 and a cad gxl LDC mic
yamaha mg mixer.
rane ms1 b preamp for lead up front tracks.
akg headphones
and powertracks multitrack software that i use which does 48 tracks.
and tons of midi and audio recording and editing and fx features.
this little lot will set you back just under 2k probably.
you dont need to spend more.
you will also find once you get your feet wet your needs will gradually change.
peace.

[manning1]

and if you already have a 2ghz plus computer (note thats clean and not loaded up with stuff) just knock about 600 bucks off the 2k budget.

otherwise its like me wanting a porsche turbo i cant afford and wasting a lot of porsche folks time including porsche senior engineers on the porsche bbs. i might just as well dream with a bunch of porsche brochures. and surf the internet looking at pictures of porsche.
which ive been known to do !

[thehouseofshawn]

So you're saying only come here when I have inquiries of products I will buy within a few weeks?

Maybe there should be a forum for "little ones" who only what to learn about it. And not ask about opinions.

[thehouseofshawn]

So you're saying only come here when I have inquiries of products I will buy within a few weeks?

Maybe there should be a forum for "little ones" who only what to learn about it. And not ask about opinions.

I applogize for wasting your time on the internet. You could be using it for something else...like recording.

[MOFO Pro]

No one means you any disrespect... The thread just kind of snowballed out of control... You started with a question about the best signal chain to get 4 channels of audio into a DAW... and somehow wound up discussing the merits of a midi automated mixing desk... and recording 24 tracks at a time. There's a lot work between here and there.

The people on this forum have always been very generous with their knowledge and expertice... but a board is an impossible forum to teach all the in's and outs of recording from scratch.

This is a place to seek assistance along the way... Get your hands dirty in it, and focus on what you need to get started... it'll give you a much better idea of where you eventually want to go with it.

Maybe if you take a few steps back...

Just my thoughts...

[manning1]

shawn. i mean no disrespect. you would be further ahead and learn a lot more just starting with ANYTHING. even if its a cheap shack mic
and a terrible on board sound card.
i posted a great starter system which is a million times better than when i started off . just start recording and get your feet wet even if its with a 80 dollar 4 track porta and one mic. youll learn way more that way.
just my 2 cents.