Phased Off

[ecktronic]

I just encountered my first noticeable issue of phase problems from recording a kit.
kik - d112
snare- sm57
hihats sm58
toms 3 x clip mic sennheisers
OH 2 x C1000

I might just have never noticed it, but this time i really did. The overheads on their own sounded good but were out of phase with the kik and the snare mics. The strange thing is that the hihat mic was in phase with the OHs!
I even tried inverting the phase of both OHs, but it just sounded even worse!
I dont know enough about this. Is it to do with the OHs position. (i am close micing everything)
I had the overheads pointing towards the snare and cymbals trying to get as even a distance to the snare as possible without forgetting about the cymbals.
i know it is possible to budge the tracks a bit to get them in time with each another but i have Cubase vst5 and cant seem to do it accurately enough and also dont want to have to do that really.
To combat my phase issues i had to take all the low and mid end away from the OHs and just leave some highs. And i had to do the same for the hihats as the hihats were out of phase with the snare.

Please help me anyone with some pro experience.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I just encountered my first noticeable issue of phase problems from recording a kit.
kik - d112
snare- sm57
hihats sm58
toms 3 x clip mic sennheisers
OH 2 x C1000

I might just have never noticed it, but this time i really did. The overheads on their own sounded good but were out of phase with the kik and the snare mics. The strange thing is that the hihat mic was in phase with the OHs!
I even tried inverting the phase of both OHs, but it just sounded even worse!
I dont know enough about this. Is it to do with the OHs position. (i am close micing everything)
I had the overheads pointing towards the snare and cymbals trying to get as even a distance to the snare as possible without forgetting about the cymbals.
i know it is possible to budge the tracks a bit to get them in time with each another but i have Cubase vst5 and cant seem to do it accurately enough and also dont want to have to do that really.
To combat my phase issues i had to take all the low and mid end away from the OHs and just leave some highs. And i had to do the same for the hihats as the hihats were out of phase with the snare.

Please help me anyone with some pro experience.

this is a good start.

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/sho...ht=recorderman

[punkin]

I read the recommended thread for reading...some really good stuff in there. Since we're talking about phasing, as I understand it we want to hear the drum set the way the drummer hears it (yes/no?).

I'm always looking for a short cut...Just wondering, is it possible to correct or adjust for phasing problems by setting up a signal audio source in area where the drummer's throne would be, hit the record button on all the mics and check the recorded signal phase relationships? Then, make adjustment based on that info?

I must be over simplfying it.

[Farview]

If you can't zoom in and line the tracks up, just reverse the phase of those tracks. There has to be that utility in cubase vst.
When ever you put 10 mics around a drum kit, something will be out of phase with something else. There is no way to get the phase relationships between all the mics perfect, so you have to pick your battles. Just worry about getting the snare in phase all the way around and you will be in good shape.

[ecktronic]

I did invert the phase on the OHs with VST5 but it sounded wavey and kinda like a pan effect! I thought it was possible to get everything in phase somehow to get that really in your face sound. I suppose i will just have to try and line up tracks so they are all in time with each other.
Cheers all.

[Farview]

You cant line up all the tracks so they are in time with each other. The snare bleed in the floor tom mic can be slid in time with the snare in the overheads, but then the floor tom will not be in time with the floor tom in the over heads.
That 'in your face' sound comes from using samples (no bleed) or at least a lot of gates. That way you can line everything up with the sound in the overheads.
I really think you room is what is giving you the problem. The refections off of a close wall are out of phase with the direct sound or are bleeding into other mics more than normal. Try moving the drum set a few feet in any direction, see if the problem goes away. (or changes)

[ecktronic]

Cheers for the help. I am actually using a very small room, just enough for a drum kit and a few bits and bobs.

[Farview]

It is the reflections that are killing you, not the phase from mic to mic. It is the phase of the reflections from mic to mic.

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by Farview

You cant line up all the tracks so they are in time with each other. The snare bleed in the floor tom mic can be slid in time with the snare in the overheads, but then the floor tom will not be in time with the floor tom in the over heads.

One thing that can help is to envelope the tom tracks so that only the hits come thru. Bit time consuming, but then it's just a matter of lining of the OHs with the kick & snare

[fenix]

sometimes you can get that phasing phenomenon just by miking too close to the cymbals or having the overheads too close to the ceiling.

keep at least 18 inches from those cymbals.

[Farview]

Here is something interesting, just for giggles. Reverse the phase of the overheads, mix it out, and listen to it on a suround system (with the dolby pro-logic turned on). Every time you hit a cymbal, it should start on one side then swing 360 degrees around your head really fast. Not very useful, but if you tell people that you did it on purpose, everyone will think you are an engineering genius.

[ecktronic]

Cool might just try that surround thingy, but not sure how it will work if i am mixing to stereo. Wont it just be two channels rather than the 5?
Does pro logic mimik surround or something?

[Farview]

Surround info is hidden as out of phase info in a stereo track. That is how you get surround from a vhs tape. If you have goofy phase problems, strange things start happening when you turn the surround on.
Another strange thing, if you play with one of those stereo wizards in your daw the wider you make the stereo image, the more signal goes to the back speakers.

[ecktronic]

Nice. I never knew that and am keen to try and make some crazy random noises. Not music more abstract audio art. Maybe i will make a CD of audio art and sell it and become rich and then buy a recording studio!! I can only dream.