Vocal Effects - Equipment

[cgm]

Hi folks, I do lead vocals in a Soul/Funk band. We rehearse in a studio that is reasonably equipped. The mixer allows only one "effect" to be used at a time. The usual's apply...reverb, delay. While I really love a lightning quick delay for vocal thickening, I really want to add more -specifically reverb and compression. I've dropped guitar leaving that to the other Gents, and focus only on my vocals. Hence, I want to make it sound the best as possible.

I have been looking at buying a vocal effects unit (floormodel) to use live in the studio. Digitech has a couple (Vx300, Vx400). There are others out there more expensive, but they do more. I'm not interested in these as they are mostly pitch correctors and harmonizers. I really just don't want to go down that road. But I do want the effects.

My curiousity...I have a multi-effects Guitar pedal - Roland ME-10. This is one awesome unit for guitar (back in the early '90's this cost about $850 Canadian). It has all the effects and allows the user to control the patch, and set custom patches.

However...
1) Are guitar effect pedals as good as one's made specifically for vocals? (an effect unit is an effect unit???)
2) Anybody out there have experience with the Digitech units? (the web site is lousy for feedback)
3) Am I correct in assuming that by carefully blending EQ, Compression, Digital Delay, and Reverb, one's voice will come out as best as one can make it (I'm not looking for something to make a lousy voice into a good voice. I know that is a hopeless waste of time).
4) Anybody have experience using a Guitar effects pedal with vocals?

Anyhow, lots to talk about on this thread, but any discussion on the above would be much appreciated. THANKS...

[radiorickm]

the guitar effects are pretty much the same effects as vocal effects..

the only thing you will really have to overcome is the input type....

you have an xlr cable on your mic, and the guitar effects probably don't.

you could go thru a pre-amp and then feed that 1/4 out into the efx and come out pretty well.

i looked at the 300, but i decided on a rack unit insted. I do use a digi-tech fpr my guitar though, and have used it in a "PINCH" for running the mic thru. ( i happend to have a xlr to 1/4 cord with me and it worked pretty well)

[cgm]

Thanks for the response. You are correct, the pedal only has 1/4" inputs. What does work is to simply get a patch cord that has a XLR to 1/4". Attach it to the XLR cable and into the pedal and you're done. One does not need to use a mixer (well at least I haven't gone this route).

This all begs another question... by using the XLR-1/4" adapter, is there any loss in quality?? That was one reason I was looking at the Digitech product. But it seemed that all I would do is spend $$ for something I already have...

Again thanks for your input.

[hasbeen]

FWIW, Perry Farrell used to use a plethora of foot pedals on his mic, controlled from a floorboard near the mic stand.

I would suggest (if you have the $) getting some rack outboard units, as opposed to guitar pedals, in the studio. The Ensoniq DP/4 in an underrated, multi purpose rack unit that is a real bargain for the price. It has been discontinued but is usually available on ebay.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by cgm

by using the XLR-1/4" adapter, is there any loss in quality?? That was one reason I was looking at the Digitech product. But it seemed that all I would do is spend $$ for something I already have...

The adapter wont give you any loss in quality, the impedance mismatch between the mic and the stomp box will. The stomp box is not balanced either.

I did not understand if you are using this for live (or rehearsal) or in a studio application. For live, if it sounds good to you and doesn't feed back, go ahead and use it. For studio, it will pick up too much noise and sound kind of grainy.

Don't worry about a theoretical loss of quality. If it sounds good to you, that is all that matters.

[cgm]

has been - thanks for the equip. suggestion. I'll noodle on that.

Farview - many thanks great insight. Pardon my need to get clarification, just my lack of understanding ---

1) What is "impedance mismatch" - what does that mean and how does it effect the sound or whatever else?
2) What does it mean if the stomp box is not balanced - balanced in what way? And if not, what effect does that create?
3) I was planning on using whatever I had in both the rehearsal studio and live. Why is there a difference?
4) Why would this setup create feedback? Is there any way to control that?
5) Why would the unit pickup noise? Why would it sound "grainy"?

As such, do you think the "vocal" stomp box (ie: Digitech) would eliminate these issues, because its made for the mic. Are the issues you cited due to this being a guitar stomp box, coupled with the XLR to 1/4 jack issue.

But to "has been's" point...is a rack mount unit better (ie: no probs like this). I really don't want to spend all that much, but will if the effects are good. I like the floor concept as you can change on the fly...but then again as "has been" mentions, Perry had pedals linked to the effects processor. So, Hmmmm..... maybe thats the way to go.

I'd like to really understand the issues above re: my guitar box. But I don't want feedback....and all sorts of other probs due to mismatch of equip.

Either way... many thanks for all your thoughts. It is truly appreciated.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by cgm

1) What is "impedance mismatch" - what does that mean and how does it effect the sound or whatever else?.

The output of a guitar is high impedance and the output of a mic is low impedance. A guitar effect will be designed with the output of a guitar in mind and would therefore have unexpected results when used with a mic. It could change the tone or volume of your mic simply because it was not designed for it.

Originally Posted by cgm

2) What does it mean if the stomp box is not balanced - balanced in what way? And if not, what effect does that create?.

You will notice that your mic has 3 connections (pins) and a guitar only has 2 (tip/sleeve) The mic has 3 (hot/cold/ground) for noise rejection reasons. If you get the proper adapter, you can plug it into the stomp box. But the stomp box only has 2 connections so you will loose the noise rejection and also 6db of gain from the mic.

Originally Posted by cgm

3) I was planning on using whatever I had in both the rehearsal studio and live. Why is there a difference?.

I meant to ask 'live or in the studio?' Because in the studio, they should have much nicer sounding effects. You should use those.

Originally Posted by cgm

4) Why would this setup create feedback? Is there any way to control that?.

In general, effects are not run in the monitors because they make feedback hard to control. The monitors are set so they don't feedback when the mic is up to your mouth singing. If you send a delay to the monitors, you could have the mic away from your mouth when the delayed signal comes out of the monitors, thus causing feedback. Same thing with reverb. Modulation effects (chorus and flange) are a different problem because they effect the tone (through comb-filtering) and can have unpredictable effects on the monitors. Compression will bring up the background noise and cause feedback.

Originally Posted by cgm

5) Why would the unit pickup noise? Why would it sound "grainy"?.

It would pick up noise because it is an unbalanced signal. It will sound grainy because Digi-tech makes it.

Originally Posted by cgm

As such, do you think the "vocal" stomp box (ie: Digitech) would eliminate these issues, because its made for the mic. Are the issues you cited due to this being a guitar stomp box, coupled with the XLR to 1/4 jack issue.

The vocal stompbox is the right tool for the job. However if you try the guitar stuff and like the sound of it, use it. All these things I have been talking about were directed at the quality question. Any time you put something between the mic and the preamp, you will loose quality. There is a reason that Digi-tech doesn't make any high-end gear... They can't!

[cgm]

Many thanks Jason for all your input. I now have a much better understanding of all the nuances within this whole approach / setup.

When in a studio cutting a pro demo, or recording, I couldn't agree more, I will be using their equipment knowing full well it would be better than any simple device(s) I could bring in. Further, I appreciate your insight on "Digitech" insofar as being "limited" in overall quality. I have no particular need to purchase their product, and again appreciate your experience.

Pondering everything you have imparted, I think I'll be served best making do with the Digital Delay in the REHEARSAL studio equip (no reverb, even though I'd like it..but their equip will only give me either/or) as it gives my vocals a very nice, but subtle "thickening" (man, I like that). When we get to cutting a demo, or CD, I'll rely on the equipment and expertise of the recording studio we choose.

I really appreciate you insight on how the other effects (flanger... compression) tend to alter the overall outcome of the vocal project. I'll very much keep those insights close to memory.

Thank you again for giving me very "understandable" insight into the "techincal" aspects of my curiousity, that I just simply did not have a feel for. I am much better guided, by greater understanding.

Again...many thank you's Jason.

best regards,
charley

[Farview]

You can use any effects you want for the front of house mix, you just can't have them running in your monitors, that is where you run into problems.

[HollowMan1975]

I know this is an old thread, but I found it interesting as I've tried to do exactly the same thing in the past with sketchy results.

I have a Johnson J-Station and love the thing to death for recording guitar. However, one of our songs live requires a delayed vocal effect, and trying to use the J for vocals (with the appropriate hi-lo XLR to 1/4" adapter) was very tricky. I love the sound of it, but the feedback was completely unbearable. Turning the compression off helped, turning down the treble on my monitor helped (a Yorkville 50W wedge), but still the other guys in the band could hardly hear me when we practiced because I had to turn the volume so low as not to start squealing and cause everyone permanent hearing damage. I eventually gave up on it and learned to live without the effects, but I still think the song (and some of our others) would be well served with some vocal effects.

I've been looking into the Digitech Vx300 but noticed how similar it looked to all of Digitech's guitar stompboxes, with the exception that it is made specifically for vocals and has the XLR inputs and outputs. Some of Digitech's other boxes can be had for around $100 Cdn, whereas the Vx300 is more like $280 or $300.

After reading this thread, I wonder if my problem was the fact that I was monitoring the affected (wet) signal and was subject to more chance of feedback... or if it was a level mismatch (even with my hi-lo adapter between the XLR and 1/4"). I don't see how in a live situation you could sing with a Vx300 and send the wet signal to the mixing board for the audience and the the dry-only signal back separately to a monitor.

I will try out our guitarists Korg stompbox this weekend and see if it's any better.