a job in sound engeneering

[rib]

I couldn't find anywhere else for this thread, so i am putting it in the first forum i saw.
To get a job in sound engineering (studio work, mixing, producing, etc...) would i take classes in a school of some wort or something?? please help.

[rib]

...of some SORT* (sorry)

[lectrond]

http://www.recordinginstitute.com/

[Ronan]

The sad truth is that there really are not many jobs in sound engineering out there. There is a huge industry of schools that train people for jobs as assistants in studios, but for every job that comes open there are probably a couple thousand graduates from a recording school trying to get that gig.

The buisiness of engineering is collapsing and most people that have jobs in recording these days are loosing them. the best advice I could give you is: If there is anything else in life you could do as a career and not want to kill yourself, then you should go do that. Plain and simple trying to have a career in recording is bad decision. If you are wired wrong (like I am) and obsessed with recording than that is what you should do, but be prepared for a life of poverty with no time for a social life outside the studio. I have a pretty cool career, but that's because I got in many years ago before everyone wanted to be a producer or engineer and there were more opportunities. there was less competition and the music industry was in much better shape and the home recording "revolution" had not yet happened.

If you decide to have a go at proffessional recording, I am not going to discourage you from going to a recording school, but it would not be wise to assume that you will have a job in recording when you are done and if you do manage to get into recording than you should expect that for many years you will make much less money than a fry cook at McDonalds. People can chime in with success stories that counter what I am saying, but that is a bit like talking about Tiger Woods to show that pro golf is a good career choice.

If you do this, you must be obsessed and work and study 7 days a week all day. You need to learn everything you can and find a way to carve out a unique career path where you bring something unique to the table. see if you can find an internship in a studio first. If its a cool internship you could learn more than a school will teach you and you will get a taste of the life and know whether or not its for you. I can not overstate this: If you want a life in recording, than you need to be prepared for recording to be your whole life.
Good Luck.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Ronan

I can not overstate this: If you want a life in recording, than you need to be prepared for recording to be your whole life.
Good Luck.

Well-said! And 500% true.........!

[Olive]

So the odds of landing a big cushy large salary position in a professional studio are similar to being hit by lightning while simultaneously winning the lottery....but, in your opinion, is there a market out there for low cost demo recording? Say for smaller bands that want there music recorded and to have their own cd, but can't afford time at a pro studio? Something to sell at their gigs and show their moms. Essentially offer a decent product at a reasonable price.

Or should you just admit to yourself that you do this cause you like it and accept the fact that a home studio is basically a sink hole for time and money?

Interested in your thoughts and opinions.

Brad

[BlindCowboy]

Actually, that market is being filled by people like me and other home recording hobbiests. In order to justify my sink hole, and it is a sink hole, I record garage bands/gigging bands/kareoke folks/duos/etc... for damn near nothing. The equipment's paid for and the time is my own. So, someone can get a three song demo from my studio for around $7 an hour or a 12 pack of beer. I've got a buddy that had his own studio doing just this. Then, folks like me started 'recording' their bands and friends, and now he's got a studio that's never booked.

[Olive]

I don't mind working for beer. Just cuts a step out of the 'get paid, go buy beer, go home' process.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Olive

. . . in your opinion, is there a market out there for low cost demo recording? Say for smaller bands that want there music recorded and to have their own cd, but can't afford time at a pro studio? Something to sell at their gigs and show their moms. Essentially offer a decent product at a reasonable price.

Or should you just admit to yourself that you do this cause you like it and accept the fact that a home studio is basically a sink hole for time and money?

Interested in your thoughts and opinions.

Brad

A little of both, actually.

In order to make something like this work, you've got to have a unique gift for recording . . . a unique gift for business, and for networking. Basically, what you're talking about is going in to business for yourself as an independent contractor or whatever.

The obvious downside to it all is that it takes a lot of time before you can develop a steady enough client base in order to support yourself . . . and it takes a lot more money to operate the business than you might think. Starting a business, no matter how small or modest -- is going to cost some $$. No way around it.

And unfortunately, as I'm sure you've guessed, you're not going to make a lot of money with a low-price strategy and serving that particular market. For one, your clients aren't going to be loaded. The referal business you get from them -- mostly their friends -- aren't going to be loaded either.

In the long run, the only strategy that will work with that business model -- and with any kind of low cost model -- is to ensure that you're busy . . . constantly. And in oreder to ensure that you're constantly busy, you have to advertise and get your name out there. Which again costs money. . . . which you're not going to be making a lot of, unfortunately, with a low-cost strategy.

Ultimately, if your goal is to actually make enough money to have a somewhat normal life, you need to look at other audio-related avenues besides music or bands. These aren't necessarily going to be glamorous or fun things to do day-in-day-out. Think audio books, producing low-budget radio comercials . . . or sound design for independent films. Find something unique, like recording glee clubs or church choires -- Which again places you smack-dab in the middle of a market that basically has little to no money to spend.

It's a tough gig, and I'll concur 1000% with everything Ronan is saying. He's really straight-shooting on this one.

[Warhead]

I say do your own thing and keep costs low. There are lots of decent studios out there that are tanking...they're still making payments on the $150,000 (used) console and their rent is out of control. They are having to compete with small studios who are lean and mean.

I suggest go intern and if you like this stuff, get lean and mean and start your own thing. As long as the sound is good, don't fret a whole lot about having a Neve console or all Neumann mics. Having a good sounding room with Chinese made mics would do a whole lot more justice to their sound than a crappy sounding space and $2,500 mics.

Some of those schools seem helpful. My friend went to the Recording Workshop and said it was the best focused and real world type of schooling he found as far as those places go. It's also inexpensive.

http://www.recordingworkshop.com/

Chessrock is dead on when he says promotion is the key. Many studios fail in this area also, but Chess has a good business sense where others do not in many cases.

War

[krs]

it's amazing home much the home studio business has taken it to the big guys. Lots of talented (ie trained, experienced) AE's seem to be desparate for work.

It seems like everything save major label releases are being done on 002's these days (and who knows, maybe even a few of those....)

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by Olive

...but, in your opinion, is there a market out there for low cost demo recording? Say for smaller bands that want there music recorded and to have their own cd, but can't afford time at a pro studio? Something to sell at their gigs and show their moms. Essentially offer a decent product at a reasonable price.

Or should you just admit to yourself that you do this cause you like it and accept the fact that a home studio is basically a sink hole for time and money?

I do not really think this is valid as a serious business model. every year there is a giant new crop of guys doing just that. their advertised book rate is $15/hour and thats before cutting deals. Just like the $15/hr guys are cutting into the biz of the $45/hour guys this year, next year all the $0/hour guys are going to be cutting into the biz of the $15/hour guys.

I Love recording and its been almost my sole income for 14 years and its a cool hobby as well for other folks. Hell, I run a side business that helps people get more out of their home studios, so I make money from the wave of folks getting into the home recording circus, but I am not going to BS people and tell them its a decent business idea. If you want to charge local bands a bit of money to help pay for your gear slut habbit that is cool, but if you are really looking at this a business you will make much more money flipping burgers at McDonalds.

If you really love being an engineer you should, as one of the previous posters said, get into non music work such as books on tape or being the A/V guy at a college. For me its all about the music.

[Han]

Very good thoughts here! I'm 100% with Ronan, Blue bear and Chessrock.

Imagine, working in a professional studio with all the fancy gear, working with the real celebrities.

It's a dream dude, like a wet dream, it's not real. Read Ronan's post at least twelve times, print it out in bold and hang it above your bed.

My dentist has two Porches, a Mercedes and lots of pretty female assistents, maybe that's something you'll like better.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by chessrock

It's a tough gig, and I'll concur 1000% with everything Ronan is saying. He's really straight-shooting on this one.

I see your 1000% and raise you another 250.........!!

[OneRoomStudios]

Maybe after you guys have scared everyone else off, the industry will finally have room for me

In all seriousness though, I'm scared shitless that when I finally finish my education there won't be a job out there for me. At least I'll have a college degree in a non-recording-specific field to fall back on, but after I go to more school for recording and internships and everything else (generally working my ass off) I could wind up on my ass, far from being the hot-shot producer I deam every night that I'll one day be. Something's got to give since there are so many education programs and so many wanna-be producers (myself included) but there aren't any jobs. In the mean time I'll just keep working my ass off and hope that there's a chance for me......

[chessrock]

Dot wrote a very good article on this subject not long ago. One of his quotes, I believe, was something to the effect that after a while, reality sets in and it becomes a job. And just like with any job, you can get sick of it and sometimes you can even hate it. I believe it was something to that effect.

After back-to-back-to-back projects my whole body gets tired -- not just my ears. I wish to God I could get a break. Then when I finally do get a break, I wish to God I could get some business. You're often dealing with very difficult and neurotic people -- and you don't always know how to handle certain situations with them.

You'e also dealing with technology . . . things break, short-out, etc. and everyone's waiting, looking at you. Someone decides they want to do what is, in fact, a difficult edit, and they expect you to be Mr. Fast Fingaz, wave your wand, and instantly put everything in it's place and fix their mistakes. Meanwhile, they're still standing over you, huddling . . . staring . . . waiting. I guess that's what I dislike the most. I'm not the type who likes having people watch me while I work. But it's unavoidable. Everyone's interested in what you're doing . . . probably because they all want to be Engineers. Or maybe they're just worried that you're going to erase a track or not turn their instrument up enough.

Most of the people you work with are people who's music you would NEVER be caught dead listening to.

Man, I'm getting depressed. Anyone wanna' meet me down at the pub for a beer and a good, long cry?

[Han]

You could start another recording school, it seems a very lucrative business.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but I wish you guys did more homework before you waste your precious time on recording schools.

There's no cake left, not even a very small piece. I see guys starting studio's in rented buildings, invest in gear and decoration, insulation, renovation etc.

After a couple of months most of them are gone and in deep trouble. Some of them work a whole day for 50 euro. What kind of bands and musicians do you think you'll attract for 50 a day?

My place, as you can see at my website is payed for, is my own property, the gear is payed for. I started in the mid eighties you know and worked like a horse, if I had to rent the building and lease the gear, I would have been broke a long time ago.

It's really a very bad time for studio's right now, there's been several threads on the forums about the subject. Here's one of them:
http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...&f=14&t=001616

[OneRoomStudios]

Originally Posted by Han

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...&f=14&t=001616

Man that's depressing....something has to change. I'll stay optimistic to make up for everyone else

[CGibson]

Record Rap
Or find another career.
There are more people employed in ONE Ford plant than all recording studios put together in this country.

Rap will be the only job that will be available after School.
So learn all you can and forget all you learn. Buy a copy of fruity loops and "Pro-Tools free" and record away.

C

[OneRoomStudios]

Harvey - I would love to hear your input on all this. Should I (and all other recording students) give up the dream I've had since I was in highschool, and abandon the recording industry or is there any hope left?

[manning1]

rib - i only have a couple of comments, and i hope you find them usefull.
when i was very young i was lucky and learnt some basic recording
techniques from som quite old but extremely nice audio engineers.
(ive been learning for eons. it never stops.)they were extremely kind to me.
comsidering i was so very young and stupid.
i would suggest if you get a chance, to intern for a time under such people if you can find them. its very easy to tell the ones that will help you learn.
ie: if they treat you like a human being like i was treated then those are the ones you want. suck everything up that you can. however if you come across some that want you to be nothing more than a serf; stay away.
the funny thing i found in this business, and i found the same at AES
shows was that the really knowledgeable ones to a man were such nice people. just as harvey is on here.

[Han]

Originally Posted by OneRoomStudios

Man that's depressing....something has to change. I'll stay optimistic to make up for everyone else

It is depressing, but these are the pro's talking about the business, I really wish it was the other way around, but it's reality.

The recording schools are spitting loads of graduated students, SAE has built a brand new and huge building in Amsterdam and organizes 'open days' where young guys can drool over SSL consoles, ProTools HD gear and fancy microphones.

I get lots of ex recording school students, applying for a job. Some of them has sent their CV to every pro studio in the country, but there are very few jobs and many ex students right now in my country.

This situation is world wide and it's not getting any better soon I suppose.

I wonder what Harvey has to say about this.

I really love my job and the music and I'm an optimistic guy, but these are the facts.

[slobbermonster]

hmmmm,
long exhausting hours til the wee hours of the morning.
small pay
no health insurance
intermittent work
no life when you are working
and anybody can afford good gear now so everyone is doing it.

and your thinking about going to school for this?

Go into plumbing, they make better money

[OneRoomStudios]

But equipment is only half (or less depending on who's talking) of recording....Skill is what "seperates the men from the boys" so to speak. By going to school I'm trying to gain some skills that will at the very least set me above the average home recordist. Backed up by my college degrees, expirience (I'll have more by then) and general likability (hey, I can hope), I might just have a shot in hell of getting the dream job.....right?


Man there's nothing like having your dreams crushed....

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by OneRoomStudios

But equipment is only half (or less depending on who's talking) of recording....Skill is what "seperates the men from the boys" so to speak. By going to school I'm trying to gain some skills that will at the very least set me above the average home recordist. Backed up by my college degrees, expirience (I'll have more by then) and general likability (hey, I can hope), I might just have a shot in hell of getting the dream job.....right?

I think it will be more about what you, personally, make of it.

Skill is a good thing to have, but education is only part of the puzzle. Showing up for class and going through the motions isn't enough. Be the best guy in the class. Work the hardest on your assignments. Study harder than anyone else in your classes . . . volunteer for more work . . . ask more questions. Be the annoying teacher's pet that everyone hates, basically.

This has got to be an all-consuming obsession for you.

Like with anything in life, I think if you have that, then the rest will fall in to place, and you'll know success one way or another . . . in recording or in anything.

Finally . . . and this is some good advice, so listen up . . . but if you have other non-audio related skills that a studio could use, then you might find some more doors open for you. Namely, if you can do some things that a studio owner or engineer would need or find valuable.

Like let's assume, for instance, that there's this studio owner. Chances are, he's probably quite an audio geek, so his wardrobe isn't so hot. This is just a given. Now let's say that you, the recent audio grad, were an expert fashion consultant. You sort of bill yourself as "the brilliant up and coming audio prodigy who has a damn fine fashion flare." You can even give their wives makeovers and that kind of thing.

Someone's bound to find that useful enough to hire you, by God.

Alright, I guess that was pretty lame humor. But I hope you get where I'm going with this. Like let's suppose you came upon a kickass studio that just had an atrocious web site that needed a lot of work. Now let's pretend that you're an audio engineer grad who happens to be a whiz of a web site designer. Suppose you knew how to tinker with various recording gear . . . on top of havnig a specialty like being a whiz at tuning drums or something. Oh, and also have some serious sales experience and were willing to cold-call and network for new business. Perhaps you have some carpentry skills and can help them make improvements to their facility.

Now I realize that's not entirely realistic, but let's assume you had maybe two of the skills mentioned. Just two of 'em. It's going to be tough for someone like that to get passed up. Someone can use you . . . someone might not be able to live without you. I guess what I'm saying is to look for other non-audio qualities that might differentiate you and make you attractive.