levelling songs loudness

[webstop]

If you are putting several songs on a CD, what is your technique of making them sound equally loud?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by webstop

If you are putting several songs on a CD, what is your technique of making them sound equally loud?

A mastering house is my first choice......

Also, there are artistic considerations as to why you DON'T want them equally loud.... if you've got a ballad in-between the fast-rockers, you hardly want the ballad to be at the same apparent level as the rocker tunes..........

[webstop]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

A mastering house is my first choice......

Also, there are artistic considerations as to why you DON'T want them equally loud.... if you've got a ballad in-between the fast-rockers, you hardly want the ballad to be at the same apparent level as the rocker tunes..........

Bruce, I understand that Blue Bear Sound can offer many services, but this is obviously not what I asked about.

To avoid further misunderstanding, I rephrase the question: how do you make several consecutive songs sound leveled?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by webstop

Bruce, I understand that Blue Bear Sound can offer many services

What does that have to do with anything????

[APP]

Originally Posted by webstop

If you are putting several songs on a CD, what is your technique of making them sound equally loud?

CD Architect is a KILLER program that, among many other tasks, allows you to adjust the levels using volume envelopes while laying out the tracklist. (a good non-destructive way to adjust the volume for the cd only, not your original master - in case you screw it up). it is the easiest way i have ever encountered. i generally work off the loudest track and adjust everything in relation to that. but you may have to use compression.

hope that helps.

---

[kylen]

Originally Posted by webstop

If you are putting several songs on a CD, what is your technique of making them sound equally loud?

Accurate [as possible] Environment:
Good/Great Mix -> D/A conversion -> Monitoring Speakers -> Balanced Room Acoustics (bass & reflections) -> Ears -> SPL Meter -> Listening Levels (approx 75-85 dBSPLC low to loud, take it to 60dBSPLC [lower] then 90dBSPLC [louder] just for kicks)

Tools:
Mastering Application -> sequence 24bit tracks -> Parametric EQ -> Compressor -> Limiter -> fadein/fadeout -> Dither-> write to CD

If you're doing this at home on your own dime 'Magix Audio Cleaning Lab 2005' has all the tools you need to make a good sounding demo. You can balance relative levels of different tracks depending on their sequence and adjust individual eq and dynamics to make them all fit together better. Sony CD Architect does the same thing but is way more expensive and has less 'home' features dealing with effects...it has more pro features though dealing with PQ and other codes generally irrelevant for me.

If you're doing this for a commercial enterprise and there is money budgeted for mastering then I can't say what they use. Somebody with those services available will stumble in here shortly

[fenix]

since this is homerecording.com and most of our projects are home recording projects, my first choice is wavelab.

[Farview]

In wavelab, put the songs in a montage and use the meta-normalizer

[kylen]

Eegads guys Wavelab=$700 list Is it worth it ya think ?

[Farview]

The new one also does DVD authoring. Yes.

[kylen]

hehe, Magix CD authoring=$40 they have another DVD authoring package for $79 I think as does Roxio...It's hard to loose at those prices (unless you're trying to fix ill mixes during mastering).

I'm afraid the authoring packages and ac3-encoders and video transitions we spent $$$ on a few years ago is becoming commonplace in the 'consumer' packages like these.

[webstop]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

What does that have to do with anything????

Since you asked, I'll try to explain.
I asked a specific practical question, which you, as a pro are fully capable to answer. Instead, all you say is that mastering house would be your first choice. I wouldn't mind such an answer, if you suggested a second choice, or a third. I wouldn't mind if you said, that it could be done this way, or that way, and then suggest a mastering house.
I asked about a way to perform a very simple task and you are sending me to the mastering house for that. Since you are running a recording/mastering business I consider such an answer as self-advertisement. Of course, you did not specifically offer your Blue Bear Sound, but your answer is obviously aimed at us amateurs by pushing an idea of using mastering houses for all our needs.
This is not why people are posting questions at this BBS.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by webstop

Since you are running a recording/mastering business I consider such an answer as self-advertisement. Of course, you did not specifically offer your Blue Bear Sound, but your answer is obviously aimed at us amateurs by pushing an idea of using mastering houses for all our needs.
This is not why people are posting questions at this BBS.

My answer was aimed at getting you the best (ie, highest-quality) solution to your question.

And the MOST IMPORTANT point of all -- Blue Bear Sound is a recording studio NOT A MASTERING HOUSE..... I farm my mixes out to mastering houses just like I suggest to everyone who cares about sound quality do as well......

Thanks for your misinterpretation of my position at this forum -- I assure you that after over 10000 posts - the majority of which contain free and solid advice, I hardly need to push my services here...........

[Farview]

Originally Posted by kylen

hehe, Magix CD authoring=$40 they have another DVD authoring package for $79 I think as does Roxio...It's hard to loose at those prices (unless you're trying to fix ill mixes during mastering).

I'm afraid the authoring packages and ac3-encoders and video transitions we spent $$$ on a few years ago is becoming commonplace in the 'consumer' packages like these.

If you want to set up the menus and make a real dvd for duplication, roxio will be of no help. It is true that the price of things is coming down, but if you need the power to make a professional package, you still need to pony up more than $100.

[webstop]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

My answer was aimed at getting you the best (ie, highest-quality) solution to your question.

Yes, its like I ask: "Is this particular income taxable or not?"
You answer: "Hire a CPA".

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

And the MOST IMPORTANT point of all -- Blue Bear Sound is a recording studio NOT A MASTERING HOUSE..... I farm my mixes out to mastering houses just like I suggest to everyone who cares about sound quality do as well......

Your mixes or your clients' mixes?
According to your website you advertise Blue Bear Sound to prospective clients as a single point of contact for all needs from inception to completion, including mastering. Like I said, you don't offer services of Blue Bear Sound directly, but you obviously push the industry, and I think that in this respect you overdo.
I care about the sound quality of my mixes, but as a hobbyist I prefer to do whatever I can myself. There are quite a few people like me at this board.

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Thanks for your misinterpretation of my position at this forum -- I assure you that after over 10000 posts - the majority of which contain free and solid advice, I hardly need to push my services here...........

Too bad I haven't received any solid practical advise from you in my thread. I am pretty sure that pros like you have something to say on the subject matter. Ironically I just noticed your banner flashing on top of this page , but that’s OK, pay advertisement helps to keep this board alive.

Peace.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by webstop

Your mixes or your clients' mixes?

I don't understand the distinction...... any mixes I do ARE for my clients, so what's the point?

Originally Posted by webstop

Too bad I haven't received any solid practical advise from you in my thread.

Then apparently you don't read too well.........

[giles117]

What is funny is this thread was answered by BB's 1st response and the answer still has not changed. LOL.

If you drop the word house you got the Idea. Master your Songs..

[giles117]

Now there was this cute little posting joke in another forum which said when you ask a question give as much detail as possible you asked a VERY SIMPLE question.

How Do I level them. the answer is mastering.

Now a better question after that 1st answer is how do I go about mastering. But alas if you search around you will find out all different ideas and ifo on how to master.

Even if all you wanna do is even up the levels.

[HWB]

Its my opinion that this forum is for "HOME" recording enthusiasts. I am such a person and I have NO delusions about producing professionally mastered recordings on my VF160 in my home. Therefore, I believe some questions posted here aren't within the context of what this forum is supposed to be all about.

I realize Blue Bear can be very outspoken but his input here is invaluable and I appreciate his expert, professional advice. Its also my opinion that if things are recorded properly with talented musicians and singers, mixed tastefully rather than destroyed by over producing, and the levels are watched closely during the entire process, we can have a very good, even close to professional sounding recording. I have recorded in professional studios and produced in such studios for other artists and I am totally aware that what I do in my home can't compare to a REAL studio.

Blue Bear is right, if you want a professional recording, do it right in a real studio and send it to a quality mastering house.

Just my opinion.....AMEN

[kylen]

Originally Posted by Farview

If you want to set up the menus and make a real dvd for duplication, roxio will be of no help. It is true that the price of things is coming down, but if you need the power to make a professional package, you still need to pony up more than $100.

Fair Enough !

giles - I disagree that recommending a mastering house is an audio technique - it's a business decision. Also like Farview points out, as well as the mastering guys in other threads have, for a production run you need PQ and all the other codes set up. The initial post from webstop didn't make it clear what level of discussion he was trying to have but from the question I assumed 'home mastering' so I gave my 2cents along those lines.

Sometimes you get the pros in these threads or other folks who have discussed stuff like this many many times and actually have some good advice elsewhere but for one reason or another don't feel like repeating themselves every post. Sometimes ya gotta search older posts and print stuff out and pop it in the old engineering notebook. I just did that the other day at the Cakewalk forum was a real interesting post concerning setting up compressors to get the bass/kick to pump and pop - explained in a way that made me feel more musical about the whole thing instead of 'attack=13ms' 'release=150ms', I put that in my notebook !

The other thing is a lot of us hang out at other forums and are in varying degrees of ' engineering perfection' so after listening to George Massenburg discuss drum micing sometimes it's a little tuff for some folks to remember to switch over to the 'homerecording' hat where most everyone starts at some point...

What were we talking about... I just grabbed a cactus out in the front yard so I an't a happy camper right now !@#$!

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by webstop

I asked about a way to perform a very simple task and you are sending me to the mastering house for that. Since you are running a recording/mastering business I consider such an answer as self-advertisement. Of course, you did not specifically offer your Blue Bear Sound, but your answer is obviously aimed at us amateurs by pushing an idea of using mastering houses for all our needs.
This is not why people are posting questions at this BBS.

Actually this is not a very simple task if done correctly. It can involve various combinations of compressors, limiters, gain riding, not to mention how EQ effects how we percieve "loudness".

Bruce isn't trying to sell his mastering services to you, and without first hearing your material neither am I to tell you the truth. There's a lot more to mastering than making songs the same level and as Bruce mentioned this isn't what you necessarily want to do. This topic constantly comes up on this BBS, in fact I think that you are the second person that asked in the last two days. It gets a bit irritating answering it every week so you'll have to excuse Bruce (and me) if we get a bit terse. Search the site and you'll find several threads if you really want to get a ton of answers.

Ok, off the soapbox.

Here's a cheap, quick and easy way to make all of your songs the same volume if you have Sound Forge:

First get your loudest song and check the RMS level using the normalize function with the equal loudness curve. Once you find the RMS level, set the threshold of the normalizer to this value and apply it to all of your songs.

I don't recommend this however...

The way I do is to listen to all of the songs and get a feel for the overall sound of the CD. Next pick one song that is representative of the "middle ground" in terms of the character of the EQ and dynamics for the CD or go for the loudest in the case of a CD where I know that's what the client is going for. Also using references of similar music helps to hone in on a "goal" for the overall sound. Once you have a good EQ, work with a compressor or compressors to get "fullness" and a limiter for volume. Listen to how the transients are affected by different variations of thresholds, compression ratios, attack and release times. Listen for distortion (all compressors have this to some degree, high quality compressors to a lesser degree of course), pumping, punch, and the bounce of the dynamics of the song. If there are sections (usually Intros) that are low in volume compared to the average try using automation to bring them up if they need it rather than squashing the entire song for the sake of the low points. Once I think that I have this in the ballpark, start working on the other songs in the same way comparing them with a good metering system and more importantly by listening switching back and forth between several of the songs on the CD. Your ear is the best guide in regards to volume since the density and frequency characteristics of a song as well as the average level change our perception of "loudness". Two songs both at the same meter reading can sound radically different in regards to "loudness". After I think I have them nailed I burn a CD and listen to how they sound on several different systems. Each system will bring it's own perspective to it, so go for what sound good on all systems.

That's it in a nutshell, there are other issues with regards to mastering such as imaging, octave balance, editing and other stuff, but that's another thread.

Hope this helps?

[giles117]

Hate to disagree with your disagreement. It is not a business Decision, it is an Audio Decision. I do this for a living and even I (knowing how to master and having mastered projects successfully) will send my stuff to a Lab.

A fresh set of ears gives a diff prespective on your project which in most cases will benefit you aurally.

And that is something I would suggest for anyone doing it at home.

Mastering labs can do your entire project for 500 bucks or so now a days. thanks to technology and supply/demand.

And if you can buy a $500 computer to records your project, you can spend $500 to get your project mastered.

A business decision is WHICH mastering house to use based on your BUDGET.

[AdrianFly]

I'm just a newbie.. and a silly one at that. However, it took me only one day of reading on the BBS to know what "Do not feed the bear" means.

[giles117]

Now to answer his question more accurately....

Technique....

L1, L2 or L3. then listen to each song file bouncing back and forth adjusting your threshold of the Limiter on each file till they all sound about the same in apparent loudness. Cant get any simpler than that. LOL

[Farview]

If he doesn't care about it being perfect, let him slap an EQ, compressor and a limiter on his stuff. Sooner or later he will be in a position to do something for real, and he will make the right choice then. I remember using two 4-tracks and trying to record my own version of The Wall. I learned a lot just from the experience.